07 April 2016


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ex-PFC Chuck

I was thinking more in terms of the similarities of their life paths before and after their wars started. Grant had largely failed in civilian life after resigning his commission and immediately before the war, IIRC, was no more than in his father's store in Galena and regarded as having no significant future. Similarly, Givi appeared to be in the usually dead-end job of security guard.

I make no claim to having anywhere near the depth of knowledge of WBS history that many other commenters here have. Not to mention our host. That said, however, it seems to me that you're being a bit harsh on Grant. The essential thing that he understood was that the North's most important strategic advantages were quantitative superiority in material and manpower, and thus in the east he conducted a war of attrition. As you point out it wasn't pretty but in the end it worked.

robt willmann


What is the " 'Brain's assassination" you referred to?



This has nothing to do with contraception or abortion but everything to do with journalists exposing corrupt practices. If it is illegal for some reporter to create a shell company to investigate planned parenthood then it is going to be illegal for journalists to create a shell company as cover to investigate coal mines, food processing plants or city governments; not to mention the federal government. What part of that is hard to understand?

The Twisted Genius

robt willmann,

He is referring to Alexey Mozgovoi, former leader of the LNR Prizrak Brigade. As Ishmael Zechariah pointed out, he was assassinated under strange circumstances. He was another hero of Novorossiya instrumental in the closure and reduction of the Debaltseve cauldron last year.


Givi was a "rigger" in the Donbass coal mines, ( the guy who rigs and repairs all the wetal cabelling for the hoists, the lifts, the tracklines, scoops and shovels).

He had an injury on the job, and while healing up from that injury, (no real Workers Comp in Ukraine since the endnof the Soviet) took a Security Guard job in a grocery store.

Givi's still young, and for many people of his generation, and younger generations, there are no "dead end" jobs, just job's, if you are lucky enough to have one.


In reply to LondonBob 7 April 2016 at 12:01 PM

"Said it before and will say it again, accepting the ridiculous borders drawn by the communists in the FSU and former Yugoslavia guaranteed some nasty ethnic conflicts as people sought to forcibly redraw those borders to reflect ethnic reality."

Kind of like the ridiculuous borders drawn in the Middle East and Africa by the former colonial powers - Britain and France.

A general conclusion might be that when ridiculuously artificial borders are drawn that cut clear across ethnic reality that tears will follow.


The EU officially wants to spend tens if not hundreds of billions on the Ukrainian oligarchs and have a cold war with Russia because that is what the EU agreements mean. What they unofficially want is something i don't know but i do think that the Dutch government is only officially embarrassed.


Is Givi developing political ambitions? False fiends may be more deadly than avowed enemies.


It's a bit more complex than that:


"But Texas state law includes a provision that elevates this transgression—knowingly using a fake government document—to a second-degree felony if “the intent is to defraud or harm another.” The grand jury decided that Daleiden’s goal was to do just that, by using his cover story to make a covert recording designed to damage Planned Parenthood’s reputation."


Unreleased footage filed in a civil court case shows that O’Donnell’s apparently spontaneous reflections were carefully rehearsed. David Daleiden, the anti-abortion activist who made the videos, is heard coaching O’Donnell through repeated takes, instructing her to repeat anecdotes, add details, speak “fluidly” and be “very natural.”

“Let’s try it two more times,” he told her at one point.

Later, O’Donnell protested: “I don’t want to tell that story again. Please don’t make me again, David.”


"On Feb. 5, U.S. District Judge William Orrick in San Francisco issued an injunction requested by the NAF to keep more than 500 hours of Daleiden’s unreleased footage under seal.

Orrick said the videos Daleiden has made public so far “have not been pieces of journalistic integrity, but misleadingly edited videos and unfounded assertions… of criminal misconduct.”

Daleiden’s “fraud” was so extensive and his videos so misleading that his still-unpublished recordings of private conversations do not warrant 1st Amendment protection as free speech, the judge said. In his order, Orrick used the words “fraud” or “fraudulently” 13 times in referring to Daleiden’s methods."


Apparently not, he still remains a Lt. Col in charge of the Somali Battalion.

The " on to Kiev" propaganda is from early in the Donbass War.


I doubt there will be any reduction in economic sanctions on Russia with an active conflict going on in the Ukraine. Whether there are little green men assisting or regular units or Ukrainian rebels operating Russian equipment really doesn't matter. There are consequences to all parties at this point and nothing positive has come from this conflict but grinding misery for the ever suffering Ukrainian.

It is surprising how many on the thread want to see the Russians succeed in the Ukraine. Succeed in what exactly? Occupation of the its neighbor? Reestablishment of a Russian toady? A push to the west with associated consequences? A reemergence of the Soviet bloc? Why would any reasonable person want this?

The Twisted Genius


The current government in Kiev is bent on the eradication or expulsion of all ethnic Russians on their soil. They are impoverishing all Ukrainians and are a festering sore for Europe. The Western governments seem perfectly content with this dumpster fire. I want to see the Russians succeed in removing the neo-nazi regime in Kiev. A purely rapacious oligarchic regime would be an improvement on the current lot. Having said that, I do not want to see a full scale Russian invasion. That would send the Borg into a tizzy and would lead to God knows what.


Define "succeed" in Ukraine?

Prior to the Coup, Ukraine "straddled" the trade routes, mostly oil and gas, between Europe and the Russian Federation.

Prior to the Orange Revolution, Ukrainian Governments alternated between being slightly more favorable to EU Trade, and slightly more favorable to Russian trade, and while corrupt, ( along with the whole of Ukrainian Society) were more or less "fairly" elected. Between the two competing visions of Government, both more or less agreed on The Constitution.

The Orange Revolution was a response to ongoing corruption, economic stagnation, but also a product of 5 years of NED/EU " investments" in funding, organizing and expanding pro-EU groups and political parties in Ukraine. The Orange Revolution brought in highly controversial Constitutional changes, but quickly collapsed under the burden of both it's own corruption, and it's persecution/ignoring of the needs and requirements of the Russian aligned industries and Oblasts, ( states or Provinces).

One product of the Orange Revolution changes, was that the Presidently Appointed Governors of the Oblasts, no longer needed to work "with" the locally elected Rada's, ( Parliaments) in the governing of the Rada.

The Party of Regions (Russian orientated) won the next elections and while they resolved some of the trade with Russia that had been lost, not all the trade came back,

In subsequent elections and subsequent Governments the country wobbled back and forth, ( loseing trade with Russia each time), corruption deepend, and Constitutional squabbles festered up to the Supreme Court. Meanwhile the NED/EU accelerated their funding of pro-EU groups, to the point that in an attempt to create another Colour Revolution, Maiden broke out, and as the economy continued to decline, grew.

The Party of Regions when they came back into power, continued the Association Agreement negotiations with the EU and reached a signable deal.

The EU Assention Agreement required that Ukraine swap $60 billion dollars of trade with, and aid from Russia, for a "promised" matching trade and aid package from the EU.

A week before Yanokovich was supposed to sign the agreement, the actual EU aid and trade numbers leaked out, $16 billion dollars a year were the "real" numbers.

That's a 74% pay cut for every Ukrainian.

Yanukovich balked, and at the last minute, the EU brokered The Compromise Agreement, then Maiden stormed the Rada, the Party of Regions members and many of their allies fled from Kiev in fear for their lives, ( many were beaten), and an highly unconstitutional process and vote was held by the remaining MP's, ( under the watch of armed and violent Maiden activists) to create a "new" appointed President, Prime Minister and Speaker.

The "new" Rada immediately introduced a series of laws criminalising the Russian language, (79% of Ukrainians), the Orthodox Church, (64% of Ukrainians) and Russian trade, ( 74% of the Ukrainian Economy), and membership in the Party of Regions.

In areas of the Ukraine politically dominated by the Party of Regions, anyi-Maiden protests arose, copying the Maiden tactics of low level violence, seizures and occupations of Government buildings, and public protests and barricades.

Receiving credible intel that there was a joint Turkish-Ukraine program in place to force Russia out of it's bases in Crimea, with the aid of 800 additional Spetnaz troops, Russian Forces based in Crimea, ( the Polite Men" seized and secured Crimea.

The Interm President then launched the "AntiTerrorism Operation" , claiming the anti-Maiden protestors were terrorists and sent the Ukrainian Army to clear the protests.

The "Russian Goals" in Ukraine is the Minsk II agreement, which basically allows Ukraine to straddle the Russia/EU divide, and "Federalizes" the Oblasts, giving the Oblasts the right to elect their own Rada's, elect their Governors, and pursue many aspects of economics, trade, education, public services ( just like US States do) independently of the Federal Government.

Given the competeing "visions" for the future of Ukraine:
- the EU apparently want's Ukraine to be an economic colony, cut off from Russia, predominantly energy and agricultual, subject to austerity and hollowed out, and as a raw labour pool.
- the US appears to mostly focused on Ukraine becoming another NATO adjunct, which would even further constrain Russia on it's southern border,
- Russia wants Ukraine to "straddle" EU/Russian trade making a profit on every transaction that crosses Ukraine, with Ukraine selling products to "both sides", and the rights of all Ukrainian language, religion and culture groups protected by local Governornance.

It appears very much that "Russia's" vision for Ukraine appears to be the "best" for the peace and prosperity of all Ukrainians.


"Why would any reasonable person want this?"

A real reasonable person should start with learning REAL Russian-Soviet-Russian history.Learning the REAL history of WW II could be a good, however improbable, start.


"The current government in Kiev is bent on the eradication or expulsion of all ethnic Russians on their soil."

Sadly, there is no concept of a huge difference between русский and россиянин in English language. The problem start with that--definition of nation.



Complex, sure. However an anti-abortion activist that wants to "harm another" i.e. Planned Parenthood? There's a shocker. Yet just when did a not for profit organization become a person and why isn't the left, which is adamantly against the idea of corporate personhood, abandon that principle? Apparently the only non-persons in the case are fetuses. Of course ordering all the evidence be removed from public view "injunction ... to keep more than 500 hours of Daleiden’s unreleased footage under seal." is not preemptive censorship but good old fashioned justice.

While we are at it, some background on the judge from Wikipedia:

According to the Public Citizen, a non-profit, consumer rights advocacy group, William H. Orrick III, who was employeed by Coblentz, Patch, Duffy & Bass, raised at least $200,000 for Barack Obama and donated $30,800 to committees supporting him.[9] (http://sfappeal.com/2013/05/sf-lawyer-follows-fathers-footsteps-into-federal-judgeship/)

I'm sure we'll hear some howling on the left when some small c conservative judge does the same to to some Rolling Stone "reporter". (Perhaps the one who did that bang up job 'reporting' on the non-incident at that fraternity at UVA.)


A Texas Grand Jury, assembled to investigate and possibly charge Planned Parenthood, instead, on the basis of the "activists fraud" started investigating the fraud instead, which has ( started) leading to charges and Civil Suits in Texas, and other states.

Should people who deliberately commit fraud be immune from criminal and civil charges on First Amendment and claims of "Journalism"?

The cases are ongoing, but the activists already achieved their desired result, the defunding of Planned Parenthood in many States.

Planned Parenthood is currently considering if they can afford to continue to provide health servinces in many of these States, or if they will have to close hundreds of clinics. In many regions, Planned Parenthood are the only local provider of Womens health services, from pap smears to pre-natal care.



In theory, in the US, Campaign Contributions are not "supposed to" affect the actions of Elected Officials. Perhaps your allegation if influence is misdirected, and your concern should be the Corporate and Private funding of "elected" Officials, from Dogcatchers to Judges, that have in past cases, severely influenced the elected officials subsequent actions and rendered them "nonimpartial". Perhaps, many of these positions could be "appointed" by either neutral organizations or by a bipartizan selection system. Perhaps, the solution is a Publically Funded campaign with tax payers money.


Btw, Rolling Stone is being sued,



Good summary Brunswick! I may add that the Kiev regime can use any kind of weapons against "it's" cities in Donbass, including Su-25 against civilians in a city hall office, ballistic missiles, heavy artillery, the Odessa massacre etc without EVER hearing one word of complaint (publicly) from EU leaders/toadies or US. They can bombard away and it's Russia that get's santioned.
To add you should read the report from U Ottawa pointing out how the shooters on Maidan square were shooting from activist controlled buildings - people (and trees) were hit from behind.
Finally it irritates me to no end to have a person like Carl Bildt urging Yanokovich not to use any violence against the Maidan protesters - which he complied with - and the reaction a few weeks later when all demonstrators in the East were declared terrorists and artillery was brought in, where the territorial integrity of Ukraine was sacrosanct.

Old Microbiologist

Exactly. There is also the factors such as fighting for your home against aggressive and irrational invaders with little accountability. That is against a background for Ukrainian hatred of Russians which the Fonbass was 95% ethnic Russians. On top of that the Novorussyian resistance forced all youth to evacuate to Rostov and only veterans fought in their stead while they were trained in Russia. The resistance used methods typical for an insurgency with rapid movement, sniper attacks, and accurate artillery which gave the impression of larger forces. The Ukrainian Army was being led from behind with politicians making the decisions. So a combination of poorly trained conscript soldiers using old poorly maintained equipment being led by politicians far from the battlefield is always a recipe for disaster. Not often mentioned is the loss of experienced leadership through attrition and defections. Many good leaders were fired by Kiev and replaced with sycophantic officers. Following the early battles there arose privately funded new-Nazi forces and also some American mercenaries. Really, the whole "war" aka Anti-terrorism Operation, was a debacle. The Novorussyian forces were quick to recover damaged and abandoned equipment and of course there were supplies coming in from Russia. I noticed though that it was always a tit for tat. If the US or EU provided something more sophisticated then something from Russia also appeared soon after. They were very careful to do that. But, some horrendous acts were used by the Kiev forces including ballistic missiles. I am a bit surprised nerve gas wasn't attempted as a false flag as happened in Syria. Anyway, IMHO the resistance has always had the higher moral ground and have more or less acted more professionally. The Ukrainian army and in particular the private battalions are really thuggish and the latter are cowardly and clearly war criminals.


"Doctors tried several emergency measures to stop the preterm labor, including putting Taylor on an incline in the hopes that they could perform a cervical cerclage—a procedure in which doctors stitch shut the cervix. Nothing worked. Nothing could save him."

Horrible enough, but at least she knew what was going on. My mother's mother died of a then apparently not yet recognizable dead child inside. It didn't stick out its foot. When she and/or the doctors realized it was too late. The dead baby inside her had poisoned her whole body. The doctors sent her back home to die.

The above stitching may achieve something similar today. How long, is it supposed to remain shut?

Nature? Against Nature? Under what conditions does it make sense?


Unofficially they know (or, rather, beginning to feel) that Ukraine is a failed state and they want Russia to pay (literally) for this cesspool while continuing with their "policies". The truth, however, is such that it is EU which must pay for Ukraine and face the consequences of what EU helped to "create". Russia, meanwhile, is going to support only friendly territories, such as Donbass and, eventually, parts of former Ukraine which are known as Malorossia.



"Should people who deliberately commit fraud be immune from criminal and civil charges on First Amendment and claims of "Journalism""

The answer for the Harris County (TX) DA is yes. The charge is for "tampering with a governmental record". That is a precedent to charge any other journalist for using a business as 'cover' for an under cover investigation. When has that ever been done in the history of the State of Texas? Given the number of prosecutions by the Obama administration against whistle-blowers it should be no surprise that other democratic officials are following the same principle. It should serve as warning that the political elite are now very much against the first amendment.

As to your other comments which state is taking Rolling Stone to court for fraud? None. That is a civil suit. Planned Parenthood is doing the same thing. Those are not government actions.

Babak Makkinejad

I would turn the question around.

What is the definition of success for the Western Diocletian states (a.k.a. the Euro-Atlantic Community, a.k.a. NATO) globally?

What is it in their confrontation with Russia?

In their nascent confrontation with China?

In their perennial - it seems - confrontation with Islam and specially with the Shia World?

Is success measured by how many Shoah Temples (a.k.a. Holocaust Museums) are erected here and there; specially one in Tehran?

Are they trying to force down on everyone else the "Man-made Global Warming" hypothesis in order to thwart the industrial development of non-Western world?

Are they trying to turn the rest of the world - outside of their alliance structure - into harmless pastoralist countries, such as Costa Rica, that are poor and ready to be used for their amusement - say renting out their wombs and their vaginas?

What is happiness for Western Diocletian states?


thx, TTG & all.

I would have expected better propaganda - more clever, less blatant, better produced - at least if Russian professionals were directly involved. I'd conclude that it's homemade, by local amateurs, not something made by "little green men".

I'd also bet that Givi is a fighter, capable of leading a military unit, but not a country. Changing the spelling of Kiev to the Russian version may fire up his troops, but it would also harden the resistance of ethnic Ukrainians. Maybe I'm reading too much into one picture, but Givi isn't going to re-unite the Ukraine.


"The "new" Rada immediately introduced a series of laws criminalising the Russian language, (79% of Ukrainians), the Orthodox Church, (64% of Ukrainians) and Russian trade, ( 74% of the Ukrainian Economy), and membership in the Party of Regions."

Brunswick, the respective images of the enemy may have been well in place at that time, accompanied by Paranoia on both sides. To this "nitwit", in case anyone does not know it by now.

"Receiving credible intel that there was a joint Turkish-Ukraine program in place to force Russia out of it's bases in Crimea"

Hmm? Credible? I am vaguely aware of EU enlargement East efforts, from Russia's perspective: encirclement... and it feels both could be somewhat envisioning a similar direction concerning the EU and in Ukraine's case Nato expansion, which seem to come in a package. No doubt Turkey could have shown some type of solidarity concerning EU efforts. ... If I forget for a while time frames and that the Tayyib wasn't really pro-Europe earlier in his life and look at matters historically.




Concerning austerity, I would like to refer to my friend Yanis, I happen to mostly agree with him on the topic of the Panama papers and Brexit (apart from the reminder of the Russian business man, in the first panel session, whom paradoxically enough, I also agree with. Not that what he say is not also true for the US to a large extend, and slightly lesser for Germany. With Germany in a different economical class ...).

At one point in time, I called Yanis the prophet of austerity, later the traveling salesmen. Here in the second passage after the Panama panel on: "The Weak must suffer, what they must".

No doubt transparency is theoretically a good thing long term, or is it, like making the EU more democratic and streaming everything. But pray tell me, how many have time to watch matters and study matters in details? Will they also put up matters discussed the whole documents. Or does he consider streaming enough?

THUS: while I do share his pessimist fear, about the "toxic political powers" gaining prominence in Europe, I don't share his hope that this can be prevented by "transparency in Europe". The average citizen, not least the "Weak that must suffer", would always need "translators", if they bother to still vote at all. Which opens the doors for special interests, on the two sides that did not change over the centuries.

See the Dutch electorate's amount of interest in trade with the Ukraine? Which is one step of the way to EU membership.

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