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22 April 2016

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cynic

If that was his judgment it shows him to be a poor leader.

Ulenspiegel

If the UK leaves both sides will suffer, that is undisputed. And it is quite obvious that a Brexit will not give the UK an economic gain.

Therefore, a honest Brexit discussion would balance this expected economic disadvantage with gains in other fields, we do not see this discussion. Why?

The situation does not improve when issues, like high immigration from non EU countries, are blamed on EU membership, i.e. the EU is used as scapegoat for British screw-ups.

And there is a very low willingness in other countries to make special offers for an English EU membership.

So a quite likely scenario is that UK will leave the EU, the Scotts will try to reenter and as final result we have the dissolution of the UK and an economicially damaged England outside the EU. This for which advantages?

elev8

I thought you were a Trumpite?

elev8

American exceptionalism is unexceptional in that there exists more than one version of it.

cynic

I think his masters are indeed the moneyed interests who created him and pushed him into a position for which he is not naturally suited. They are also those, closely associated with the banksters, who control the means of shaping the public mind and mood, and use this to degenerate public taste and create conditions making such a person acceptable, and then enjoy having all his rivals grovel to them, revealing how they have debased the leaders of the peoples over whom they rule from the shadows. Obama seems to be ending his Presidency, having blamed his failures on the associates he appointed, traveling the world collecting photos of himself with 'important' people.

In better times he might have made an acceptable footman, waiting to be told to step and fetch something; as a butler looking after the household he is over-promoted. He has the resentment of someone who thinks he should be master of the house, but has come to realise that he really isn't, and isn't up to the job anyway.

J

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/04/24/stiffing-iran-on-the-nuke-deal/

Stiffing Iran on the Nuke Deal

"Secretary of State Kerry boasts about how little Iran has gotten from the nuclear deal – accessing only $3 billion of its frozen assets – but that hurts U.S. credibility and endangers the deal, says ex-CIA analyst Paul R. Pillar."

cynic

Is this another less violent case of a Muslim making a public sexual advance on a German woman, whilst the police look on indifferently?
http://www.theburningplatform.com/2016/04/24/thanking-merkel/

Has she approved the application by the USA to join the EU?

cynic

Don't you regard freedom as an advantage?

Ulenspiegel

"Don't you regard freedom as an advantage? "

I see freedom as an advantage, no question. However, much of the perceived unfreedom in UK is not caused by the EU. Again, which problems are actually caused by the EU and which of them would persist if UK/England wants economic access to the EU? What does the UK gave up with her EU membership?

different clue

The belief in American Exceptionalism is so near-total as to have entered into the intellectual DNA of most American Leftists as well.
Noam Chomsky, for example, is a well-known Blame-America-Firster. His emotional conviction is that America is the exceptionally evil nation and cause of all the world's problems and worst atrocities.

One might call Chomsky's true-belief that America is the cause of it all by the name of American Exceptional-Evilism. Exceptional Evilism is just Reverse Exceptionalism, or Exceptionalism standing on its head. So the Chomsky Left is just as much a pack of American Exceptionalists as any other pack of American Exceptionalists.

cynic

What has increasingly been given up to the EU has been Sovereignty. This has been an insidious theft. We were sold membership of a trade association, an economic community, which seemed reasonable as there was always a lot of trade back and forth with them. Then it became harmonization of standards for professional practices, which also seemed reasonable, if minor. We were told Britain would be a moral beacon for Europe, a democratic inspiration, the conductor of a heavenly choir of voices upraised to bring sweetness and light to the world - all complete nonsense of course. Now we're not only told what shape vegetables have to be, and that everything must be measured in metric terms, we're not even allowed to defend ourselves from an invasion of savages - apparently promoted by the connivance or cowardice of those running the EU.

The EU turns out to be a dictatorship of corrupt unelected far lefty bureaucrats devoted to the racial, national,cultural and social destruction of the peoples it rules, apparently at the behest of billionaire oligarchs like Soros. The EU parliament is a sick joke,lacking influence on decisions and designed to entangle corrupt and greedy politicians in it's malfeasance. It won't even produce honest accounts; it's own auditors have refused to sign them for about the last twenty years. It provides grossly feather-bedded jobs for the sleaziest and most clapped-out members of the political class to interfere expensively and unnecessarily in our lives. It creates support for itself by bribing our politicians with hopes of jobs and huge pensions and robs Peter to pay Paul, spreading fear amongst the greedy beneficiaries of it's programmes that they would lose without it. Never mind that if we weren't paying subventions to the EU we could use the same money to better effect ourselves, via British government programmes, or by reducing taxes. Estimates of contributions vary, but one amusing one recently was that we could save enough by 2030 to pay off the national debt. Now it's trying to absorb our armed forces.

It is true that the EU is doing all this with the connivance or through the negligence of our own sleazy politicians and media. To some extent it may be a bit of a whipping boy. It certainly makes everything worse, and without it, our own traitors would have a bit more difficult time.

The EU has a balance of trade surplus with the UK. They would hardly want to cut off their nose to spite their face by stopping trade if Britain left. Britain still is quite a large economy and the EU would want to have access to it. Anyway, Napoleon's Continental System failed; Merkel's or Hollande's would probably be no more effective. I doubt there are major advantages, even economically, in continued membership. Richard North on his EU Referendum site has gone into the details for years, and considers that outside the EU Britain would perhaps have more input into the bodies that create international standards for production and trade.In any case, Britain, unlike Esau, should not be willing to sell it's birthright for a mess of pottage.

If Britain escapes, other states may be encouraged to follow it to freedom. Even if it meant harder times economically, Britain could benefit from the shock. The Russians are overcoming the effect of bullying sanctions from the USA and EU. So could Britain.

The EU is a corrupt and evil organization. It should be destroyed.

Ulenspiegel

OMG, you do not understand it. You will not get special conditions. And a negative trade balance means you need cheap imports, maybe you should think harder about some economic facts. Try to understand the package Switzerland and Norway have got, that is the reference. To assume that this produces agvantages for the UK is naive.

And BTW you still have not provided claer fact where UK is politically suppressed by the EU.

"Anyway, Napoleon's Continental System failed; Merkel's or Hollande's would probably be no more effective."

"If Britain escapes, other states may be encouraged to follow it to freedom. Even if it meant harder times economically, Britain could benefit from the shock. The Russians are overcoming the effect of bullying sanctions from the USA and EU. So could Britain."

With BS like this you disqualify yourself.

cynic

The EU is not some fact of nature. It's sleazy apparatchiks don't control the sun or the rain, Britain does not need to defer to their condescending arrogance. Its just a temporary political arrangement, probably a lot more temporary than many others which Europe has seen. With any luck Britain will be around long after the EU has fallen apart.

I'm not seeking 'special conditions', or any favours from the scum that have created and maintain this monstrosity. It would be amusing if Britain just ignored the EU, stopped making payments to it's institutions and repealed any laws that came from it, retook it's fishing grounds; and left the EU to throw us out if they don't like that.

The EU won't be able to retain disciplined control over it's other prisoners for long. Soon the moneyed interests would be whispering to their national politicians, and bribing the right people to turn a blind eye, whilst they did what was in their interests and paid lip service to the EU. Even without Britain the EU has internal tensions. Plenty of people would like to break away from control by Brussels or Berlin. Maybe it would take a 'Ceausescu moment' when people see some of their notional leaders lynched, but then public anger would rapidly send the EU to the same graveyard as the Soviet Union.

I'd just love to be disqualified from the EU. It would be even better if all the crooks and rabble who fawn to the EU in the expectation of receiving favours from it at the expense of other people, simply went there and stayed there to parasite each other until the other countries they were battening on arose and overthrew the EU.

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