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10 March 2016

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turcopolier

Amir

Sanders' and Clinton's statements amount to a present and future amnesty. These are policy statements. Are you in favor of such an amnesty? pl

ked

Should we first examine the underlying assumption that anyone not already here even wants to come into the US? Doesn't illegal immigration data over the past five years indicate a trend downward? Doesn't US political culture typically get bent out of shape on a topical matter well past its shelf-life? It takes a little while to produce a policy campaign, or a reality tv show, after all.

turcopolier

ked

The US accept close to a million LEGAL new immigrants each year. What on earth are you talking about? pl

The Twisted Genius

Trey N and different clue have identified the real source of the illegal immigration problem and the correct solution. Go hard after those employers who hire illegals. A few years ago in Prince William County, Virginia, the local government was aggressively trying to reduce the illegal population in the county. Nothing was very effective until the economy took a downturn. With the collapse of the construction industry, the illegal population disappeared almost overnight. Having a zero tolerance for those who hire illegals would be much more effective than the huge, beautiful and classy wall. I know of no politician who is espousing this solution.

turcopolier

TTG

I have said nothing about Trump's Wall, nothing. What I am objecting to is a stated policy position on the part of the Democratic candidates for what amounts to a virtually general amnesty for illegals. I have an aversion to businessmen based on ten years experience swimming among the sharks and would very pleased to see them punished for hiring illegals. pl

Herodotus

If we were serious and I mean serious about the immigration issues on our southern boarder. First, I would suggest that we stop screwing around in other peoples backyards. Especially without understanding the reactions for our actions.

Secondly, properly fund ICE and the US Boarder Patrol.

Lastly, just close down the boarder without notice and that would include calling for any amnesty programs. Just suddenly give notice that as of a certain closeure date. All illegals have 30 days to report to their closest ICE office.. Otherwise ...

Amir

I think we should deal with the problem in a REALISTIC way and set out GOALS.

If the goal is to reduce crime, prevent abused in labor practices, avoid pushing down the wages of the unskilled workers, avoid overtaxation of the rest of the citizens (who will be covering the costs one way or the other, if an illegal shows up in the hospital, no one shoots that person) and enhance the security within the borders, then we should allow a "conditional" tolerance. It does not mean that their breach of law has been given the seal of approval and forgiven.

I am not in favor of an amnesty. There should be an incentive to allow the illegals to register and monitor the issue. There should also be a disincentive to discourage illegal immigration. At the same time, the pull factor inside U.S. needs to be addressed. One should not just give a blanket amnesty but specify conditions for tolerating of an illegal act while at the same time STRESSING that this is an ILLEGAL ACT but that the community, because of humanitarian reasons, has chosen to deal with this more leniently, on a temporary basis.
The employers, who employ illegals, should be severely punished.

turcopolier

Amir

"we should allow a "conditional" tolerance.' That is amnesty. pl

Amir

You come with a great analysis and dissection of the problem. Now only the solution...

ked

I wasn't clear. Illegal immigration is decling, & has been for about a decade. I thought this topic was focused upon illegal immigration. And while its an important issue, I belive it has been blown out of proportion for political reasons... which is making sensible policies actually less likely. I am not convinced that legal & illegal immigration rates are linked in lockstep, but I'm by no means expert in the field.

turcopolier

ked

I don't care if illegal immigration is declining. I, like many Americans, want to see US law enforced. This is a question of national sovereignty. Go and see if you can obtain parity in immigration, permanent residence rights, repatriation of profits, right to property ownership etc. from the Mexican government, and then talk to me about this. pl

The Twisted Genius

pl,

My point is that the wall or a policy of refusing to deport most illegals mean little if there are no jobs for illegals. Why climb the wall if there's nothing for you on the other side? A policy of non-deportation is meaningless without jobs. If Ramos asked Sanders and Clinton if these "undocumented immigrants" would be allowed to work while in this country, we would be certain if this amounts to a general amnesty. I have a feeling both would say yes.

turcopolier

TTG

Fine, screw the employers of illegals, but IMO to make that work you need national ID cards. I'll buy that idea, but no amnesty. pl

kao_hsien_chih

They are two sides of the same coin. Employers hire illegal workers. Illegal workers enter and remain because they will be hired. Both parts need to be addressed if we are serious about resolving the problem.

Fred

mbrenner,

Point one: A wall worked for Augustus and Hadrian for how many centuries?

Point six: Trump's talk seems to have pissed of some elite Mexicans. Maybe they should come out and say what they are going to do to stop screwing their own people and forcing us to subsidize millions of them.
Point seven: NAFTA was put into action by yet one more "bi-partisan" screwing of regular Americans. Screwing Mexicans was just an unintended consequence, except perhaps for Carlos Salinas who gave the extra shafting to them by privatizing - to an oligarch - Telmex.

Perhaps we should start by deporting Carlos Slim - after expropriating his money to pay for all the social programs his fellow citizens here illegally have used over the last decade.

Babak Makkinejad

I agree with you that there is no cure, just disease management.

Furthermore, the affliction is rather wide-spread and seems to be borne by jobs as well as security vectors all over the world.

There are 3 million Afghan immigrants in Iran - in a population of 80 million.

US's ratio is not very different - 12 million illegals in a population of 304 million.

The difference is that those Afghans have an alien-resident ID and work permit and nothing else - they have to go steal manual labor from Iranian workers.

Not that the Iranian laborers are too keen on doing what Afghans do either. Construction work in Iran will come to stand still without Afghans.

Learn to live with this.

And no, US cannot do anything to ameliorate the conditions of Central America or Mexico short of weaning herself of narcotics and other mind-altering drugs.

That make some difference.

Babak Makkinejad

"Why climb the wall..."

Because on the other side of the wall you, your family, your relations are physically safe.

Babak Makkinejad

I think the realistic thing is what Iranians have been doing: issue the immigrants identification cards and let them work and earn their keep.

But then, in Iran, like Europe, everyone has a national identification document.

Babak Makkinejad

So, who is going to do this enforcement?

Not the FBI or INS, I should think, but the local constabulary?

So, among all their different duties, the police in Charlotte would be raiding restaurants or parks every once in a while, establish that the employees are illegals through some sort of judicial process that would then clogs the courts to finally succeed in deporting two short-order cooks?

Not likely.

gemini33

I've been talking to people about that same exchange and Bernie signed onto it too. I think it's impossible to actually follow through on that promise. I'm pretty sure Hillary was parsing words (of all the undocumented here in the US) AND making a statement that most people will interpret in the overly broad way. Trying to have it both ways.

Plus, I think there are many people who won't want to say it publicly but are truly alarmed by the de facto open borders policy they are advocating. Just as an example, my fiance emigrated here decades ago. Legally, from Europe, as did a lot of other scientists during that period of time. He is against this policy as are other people we know who emigrated here. I think they could lose the election on this.

Babak Makkinejad

In case of Afghans & Iraqis in Iran, the distinction between a "political refugees" and an "illegal immigrant" is one devoid of merit.

They broke the law in entering Iran. Of course, they had reason to do so because their lives were in danger - war, political violence or famine - were the drivers of their flight.

Babak Makkinejad

I think you also need a police statement attesting to a clean record for Mexico.

Babak Makkinejad

This is true but would the existence of such a parity be of any use to anyone from the United States in the light of the security situation in Mexico?

And then there is that little issue of the absence of "Bail" in Mexican Law; they can lock you up - from what I have heard - and keep you there for months without producing you in front of a magistrate.

turcopolier

Babak

"Parity" with regard to Mexico is a matter of principle and should include the application of equivalent standards of justice on both sides of the border. As Trump implies we have lots of leverage with Mexico in regard to our balance of trade. I have never been in favor of free trade as a principle. I agree wit Adam Smith that free trade is only a good idea if it benefits you. Free trade as applied in the trade deals that Trump bemoans is the darling of academic theorists and people in the investor class like me, but is not the darling of a grandson of factory workers as I am on my mother's side. We have lots of leverage with Mexico and we should use it. You are an old timer on SST and smarter than many so I am sure you remember what I wrote long ago about the US and Mexico. IMO a union of the two countries would be altogether appropriate, but that will never happen... pl

Babak Makkinejad

Over time, I have come to the conclusion that a Union of Mexico with the United States will destroy the Western Diocletian essence - Liberty, Platonic Academy etc.

Americans do not believe in Magic, Mexicans do.

Americans (and Russians) believe that technology can improve the world - I do not think Mexicans even think in those terms.

I think the differences between Mexicans and Americans is qualitatively unbridgeable - in my opinion.

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