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21 February 2016

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MRW

And Indonesians, in general, are a sweet, warm, and welcoming people. Traditionally incredibly tolerant of all beliefs and customs, except those that would offend any western country.

Hard for me to believe that they would be seduced by Wahabist ideology, which would enslave their people, destroy the tourism that makes up the backbone of so much of their economy, and destroy their paradise.

Iron Knee

I've been living in Indonesia for nearly 7 years (pop >250m). It's common for both locals and foreigners to suggest that the country is becoming increasingly socially conservative, but it's unlikely that hard-line "ISIS-type" extremism will ever gain more than a relative handful of adherents there.

After the recent attacks in Jakarta, I read an interview with a brother of the alleged "mastermind." The brother claimed that he was essentially being hassled by everyone from his teachers to his neighbors because he had a terrorist in the family, and he hails from Solo, a city that is known for being a devout and conservative community.

In addition to what might await potential Indonesian recruits to ISIS in Syria & Iraq, there are also several special anti-terror units in the Indonesian police and military, all of whom are likely to be keenly aware of the ISIS advert described in the post. Densus 88 in particular, a special police unit, has a well-deserved rep for finding and eliminating terror suspects, usually without a great deal of bothersome negotiations.

incredulous

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation is simply not a credible source for such a story.

I am a 62 year old Australian who has spent much of his life listening to and watching--being informed by--the ABC.

No doubt the ABC has always had a bias, but that bias has never been as stark as in the post-9/11 era.

The bias today? No prizes for guessing: Islamophobia, Russophobia, Neoconophilia, Israelophilia. Yeah, same old NWO nonsense...

walrus

Incredulous, i share your concerns regarding the ABC, most of them have drunk the koolaid. However this report contains video and was presented without analysis, so I suspect it is reliable and perhaps accurate. We need a translation or confirmation - hence my use of the qualification "allegedly" in regard to this story.

SmoothieX12

"islamophobia, Israelophilia."

Very wrong dyadic set. Understanding Islam's fundamental incompatibility with Western (that is to say classic European) Culture and being "Israelophilic" are not the same. It is, of course, how it was impressed on the "Western" (primarily WASP) mind but I can not stand Islam not for "phobia" reasons, I am very rational in my judgement, if not to say academic, but for me neocons are the same trash as any Wahhabi. In the end, when one meets "Muslim" who drinks good Scotch and reads Federalist Papers and watches Asghar Farhadi movies, one is no closer to Islam than me being an astronaut (or cosmonaut).

Chris Chuba

Hmm... you mentioned an important waterway to the South China Sea?
Well, if one of our genius uber-Hawk Republicans get elected they will be too busy fighting the Chinese over their claims over the islands / reefs in the name of international waters. Color me cynical but I have never seen such a tone deaf bunch and this includes Hillary. We seem to be obsessed with picking a fight with China and Russia every chance we get rather than work with them to fight the radical Sunnis. We are in a serious dry spell in terms of having political leaders with minimal common sense. BTW commercial maritime traffic does not depend on being able to sail over reefs and tidal islands.

I think Donald Trump gets it but I don't have any hope for the rest of them (Col. I am talking about the South China sea and unfortunately I am serious and not being flippant).

Babak Makkinejad

Sweetly murdering 1 million souls - out of religious bigotry - in 1965 and proud of it to boot.

Babak Makkinejad

What is Classic European culture, in your opinion?

Babak Makkinejad

ABC is only telling Australians what they want to hear; in my opinion.

I also think Australia no longer has independent capability of analyzing the world around it; no more the likes of Ross Terrill.

JC Murz

Indonesia controls only one side of the Straits of Malacca. Pirates can wreak havoc by hijacking and sinking oil/LNG tankers and such, but it won't close off the Straits.

Malaysia and Singapore control the other side (oh, and Thailand too), and the Indian Andaman & Nicobar Command controls the Indian Ocean.
There's also Australia(New Zealand) and the US, plus China in the equation.

The Indonesians have always struggled with Islamic extremism, it comes and goes. They had their late 20th and early 21st century jihad in the Spice Islands, and Dayak massacres in Borneo. The Daish/al-Qaeda brand has no attraction for the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the region who are genuinely sickened by their barbaric and un-Islamic actions, except for addle-brained low I.Q. radicals influenced by Saudi/Sunni propaganda on the 'Shias exterminating Sunnis in Syria' or petty bandits like Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines seeking legitimacy for their kidnap and extortion rackets.

All this is bad for business.

paratrop

Totally agree, Incredulous. I would add Assadophobia!

paratrop

If you are very rational in your judgement, SmootheiX12, how do you manage to suggest that Incredulous is saying that Israelophilic and Islamophobia are the same? He is merely saying that the Australian ABC is BOTH Islamophobic AND Israelophilic. It might be one without being the other, but as it happens it is BOTH! I know, I listen to it.

William R. Cumming

Is my understanding correct that only the Island of Bali out of 90,000 islands making up the Nation-State if Indonesia is majority Hindu/Hindi?

Is my understanding correct that the many killed in 1965 were ethnic Chinese?

SmoothieX12

It is, in its foundation, broadly a Christian culture. There is a reason I like Roger Scruton's definition of the real "West". In general, it is the culture based in tradition of Ancient Greece, Roman Law and, as Scruton defines "God of Israel"--various manifestations of this combination. Even European secularism is based in Christianity.

SmoothieX12

Define Islamophobic.

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your response.

So Scruton is channeling me with my discourse on the Persistence of the Past and the significance of the Diocletian Line. From that perspective, Greece, Russia, what used to be called Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkan States, the Baltic States are not part of the "Real" West.

I could agree with that.

Ethiopia has been Christian for millennia, so has been Armenia and Georgia. But they are not European and will never be so. Russians who travelled in Armenia and Georgia could tell you that much. Which basically means that Christianity as the foundation of European Civilization is a rather shaky notion.

MRW

Ancient Greek culture went east, not west. The great Islamic Golden Age arose out of it.

SmoothieX12

"From that perspective, Greece, Russia, what used to be called Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkan States, the Baltic States are not part of the "Real" West."

It is kinda along the lines of Huntington's definition, when he writes about Sotto Voce in his "The Clash Of Civilizations". The real West could also be defined in terms of Enlightenment. Here, Russia, through Petrian Reforms, certainly qualifies, as none David Hackett Fischer underscores in his "The Great Wave". I doubt, though, that most Russians want any association with the "real" Europe of today. I, certainly, have very little in common with it.

YT

Mr. Cumming,

Yes - to both former & latter.

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your response.

In my opinion if one conflates "West" in particular and "Europe" in general with the "Enlightenment Tradition", then indeed Muslim Culture and Tradition are incompatible with it.

The "Call of the Mu'azan" - which is God's implicit speech - is incompatible with strong atheistic irreverence of the likes of "Charlie Hebdo" - to be concrete.

On the other hand, one could argue that many daily practices and behaviors of Muslim populations in Iran, or in Pakistan or in Egypt are themselves incompatible with the ideals of Islam - as a religion.

SmoothieX12

Islam is Sharia. No Sharia, no Islam. Western tradition and Sharia are incompatible. Late Anwar Shaikh, of course, went even further and defined Islam as the tool of Arab imperialism, which does have root in reality. Enlightenment is incompatible with Muslim tradition, that is what Asharites in general, and Al Ghazali in particular, did to Islam. Empirical evidence of that is everywhere. No Muslim nation can be considered today a developed nation in full sense of the word. Charlie Hebdo is trash, though. But at least it doesn't produce Jihad.

walrus

Thank you for your comprehensive analysis Mariner. In regard to Sulawesi, when I visited Manado and Bitung I noted the presence of very aggressive Christian evangelicals. I think they were American.

These folk I think were full on Baptists and they advertised their converts pretty heavily. I saw "christian" houses and settlements decorated by crosses in lights, billboards, etc. I was not impressed and I can't help thinking that anti christian sentiments may have been stirred up by this movement.

P.S. I can't stand Gareth Evans either, nor the political correctness slowly strangling the country.

Babak Makkinejad

"Islam is Sharia. No Sharia, no Islam" may be for Wahhabis and assorted other neo-Salafis. I think you have not been paying attention to the developments in Islam if you subscribe to that viewpoint.

If by Western Tradition you mean the "Enlightenment" - yes I could agree with you.

And please spare me your self-righteous and facile rhetoric; Islam did not produce Death Camps, Gas Chambers, the Gulags, the Great Leap Forward, the Khmre Rouge, the Opium War, the Famines in Ireland and in India, Leopold II @ his Congo project etc.

All of those owed much to the Western Enlightenment Tradition....

turcopolier

Babak

You used to argue that reform of Islam is not possible. pl

Babak Makkinejad

Not in Sunni Islam unless and until it adopts the Shia ideas and practices of Ijtihad - that is the only path forward, in my opinion on the Jurisprudence side for them.

I also believe that neither Shia nor Sunni Muslim countries can be ruled through institutions that would be considered secular by a Western Diocletian; that is not possible.

What is possible, in my opinion, is the adaptation of the ideas and practices of the Islamic Republic of Iran to other Muslim countries; Morocco could be the vanguard and most likely to succeed for reasons that I have enumerated before.

On the ideas and practices of Individual Liberty & Freedom, unfortunately, nothing exists in Islamic Tradition, all of that has to be developed over many decades and centuries of hard intellectual slog.

In other words, the Principles of Liberty & Freedom have to be amalgamated with the Principles of Islam; just like Ayatollah Khomeini amalgamated those of Republicanism with Islam.

Even when such an attempt of amalgamation has been successful, the practices of Liberty would be different than those among Western Diocletian states; there would almost certainly be areas would not be considered protected speech - such as those that would impugn the Honor of Islam or the House of Prophet.

It is interesting to me personally that the Shoah Cultists have indeed created such areas in Europe and North America - they have defined a new god and demarcated speech that impugns that new god's honor.

I also find it interesting that the UK is constitutionally a theocracy.

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