The Saudi Islamic State (FB Ali)

Many of us here have been pointing out that Saudi Arabia is not very different from the Islamic State (or Daesh). And, that the former appears to be clandestinely supporting the latter. This aspect of reality is studiously ignored in the West, and indeed throughout much of the world. Probably because of the Saudis' financial clout and their oil supplies, and the West's long-standing alliance with them.

 It therefore comes as a breath of fresh air when a major media publication in the West, the New York Times no less, publishes a piece that bluntly tells the truth about the Saudi state (even though, perhaps not surprisingly,  it had to go as far afield as an Algerian journal to import a column from there!).

 The author, Kamel Daoud, starts his piece with this direct statement: Black Daesh, white Daesh. The former slits throats, kills, stones, cuts off hands, destroys humanity’s common heritage and despises archaeology, women and non-Muslims. The latter is better dressed and neater but does the same things. The Islamic State; Saudi Arabia.

 He concludes his remarkable column with this ominous warning: Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its religious-industrial complex. Until that point is understood, battles may be won, but the war will be lost. Jihadists will be killed, only to be reborn again in future generations and raised on the same books.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?_r=3

Comments

[Abu Sinan]

Spot on! The head of the takfiriyeen snake is in Riyadh.

[FB Ali]

I didn't want to put this speculation in the post above, but it seems to me there is something interesting going on here.

I am pretty sure the editors of the NYT do not read minor journals published in Algeria in French. Someone drew their attention to it, and had enough clout to get them to publish it.

Some time ago, on the occasion of the Saudi King's visit to Washington, Tom Friedman published a quite out-of-character column lambasting the Saudis.

The NYT and Friedman are part of the US establishment - the Borg, as Col Lang terms it. Someone in the Borg appears to be pushing an agenda here. And has enough clout to have the NYT publish such views.

[walrus]

Someone in the U.S. Establishment? Perhaps someone who has lost a few million thanks to the Saudis depressing the price of oil?

[Charles Michael]

Some months ago there were a lot of talks about double standards,
now we discover (humm) double crossing ?
A french blog: gaideclin.blogspot.com announce the arrest in Koweit of a Lebanese citizen admitting to have funded the attacks in Beyrouth and Paris, according to AFP.

Still in Paris where 150 head (?) of state are meeting; Obama said sorry to Putin for the SU-24 downing. As there are too many of the state heads organizer (Fabius) as send the sultan to a second ranking location,in a provincial town to deliver his speech.
Will the sultan be next marooned in St Helene ?

[Babak Makkinejad]

All:

I repeat again:

ISIS is not issuing Fatwas, it is using/utilizing/invoking existing precepts of Sharia – which do not require a Fatwa since they all have been agreed upon centuries ago.

For example, from time to time, they throw young men accused of sodomy from the roof of a high building.

This is an agreed upon, consensus punishment that is “on the books” in Sharia which they are enforcing.

I do not know the current status of this particular precept in Iran but I am almost certain that at not too distant past it was considered being part of Shia Sharia precepts.

That is why all these Muslim protections against ISIS is ineffective and, in fact, not serious.

Opposition to ISIS at the level of their practices requires Muslims (Shia, Sunni, Ebadi, etc.) to admit that they may have been wrong and further that they may have been wrong for a long time.

That is not going to happen fast enough to make any difference to the War in Syria.

ISIS can be opposed on the basis of Legitimacy & Authority – that they are not a legitimate Temporal or Religious/Spiritual Authority.

But then than would require Sunni Muslims to support the current Iraqi and Syrian governments as the Legitimate (Temporal) Authority - as the Shia are doing.

They are not going to do that – not when they are screaming bloody murder that the Shia are killing the Sunnis and not when the Organization of Islamic Conference, is, in effect, a branch office of Saudi Foreign Ministry.

[Babak Makkinejad]

This writer is implicitly stating the common view of Enlightenment; Religion as being retrograde, etc.

He further calls all Islamists "DAESH" - including Iran - the "White DEASH".

Which leaves me to ponder where Turkey and AKP would be; "Pink DAESH"? Or "Ultra-Violet DAESH"?

I think failing to mark the subtle distinctions among various political currents of Islamic world can lead at arriving at mistaken conclusions.

Iranian leaders, in my view, made that mistake in their understanding of the Muslim Brotherhood - calling them "Closest to us".

But a chimp is also "closest to us" as far as primates go but it is not us by any stretch of imagination.

[Fred]

Babak,

There are plenty of Sunni Muslims supporting the Syrian government. They make up a big part of their army as well.

[FB Ali]

Babak M is wrong in his understanding of Sharia. As Col Lang has often pointed out here, there is no one 'official' Islam. There are many different versions of Islamic belief. The Wahhabi creed (followed by Saudi Arabia and IS) is just one of them.

Similarly, there is no one Sharia. There are four recognised traditional schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam. The Wahhabi creed follows one of these - the Hanbali school.

[Babak Makkinejad]

The burden is on all those 4 schools to indicate for all of us in what manner is ISIS wrong in its practices.

They have had more than a year to enlighten us, before the word "Islam" became mud.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Good point.

But they remain a minority in the wider Sunni world.

[pj]

Kamel Daoud is the author of “The Meursault Investigation," a highly regarded novella written from the point of view of the brother of the Arab victim in the Stranger by Camus. The New York Times would be aware of Dauod from that.

[Ishmael Zechariah]

Fellow pilgrim BM-the erstwhile tayyip supporter:
Could you please stop derailing the discussion? The following are the salient points:
1-KSA, the creation of Great Britain, is an abomination unto humanity and to Islam.
2-The House of Saud, its rulers, are despicable hypocrites.
3-The oil revenues of KSA are being used for exporting wahhabism.
4-A minute fraction of Moslems worldwide follow "wahhabism".
You can verify all of the above for yourself without waiting for clarification from the "Four Schools", or from anyone else.
Ishmael Zechariah

[Casowary]

He who said "the head of the snake is in Riyadh" speaks the truth. The take-down of the royals and the occupation of KSA should have been undertaken decades ago (1973-74 comes to mind). If not then, it should have happened in 2002, soon after 9/11.
We are paying these people to make the rope to hang us with.
They spread the poisonous beliefs of the "Militant and proselytizing faith" throughout the world; it is their assigned duty to do so, after all.

[JJackson]

Babak where does Iran come into this?
I took White DAESH to be the Saudis - that is they are Black DAESH plus the PR/laundering operation that brings them into the 'good' terrorist camp. Were you thinking Black flag Sunni White flag Shia?

[Brunswick]

Babak,

One has to look for "enlightenment",

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/25/muslims_scholars_open_letter_to_isis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html

Just one of tens of thousands of articles, papers, fatwa's and other opinions published over the years.

[Babak Makkinejad]

The link up here presently point to a different piece.

The article may be found @ http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html?_r=0

My apologies - I should have written "Grey" instead of "white".

At any rate, half way down, you will see the following sentence:

"It is preferred to Iran, that gray Daesh."

[Babak Makkinejad]

You are refusing to go to the heart of matter.

On your number one: "Says who?" And just because a country has been created by the Perfidious Albion does not make that country morally an abomination. Like Uruguay.

On your number 2: Of course they are hypocrites, so are many other people. AKP is a good example.

On number 3, one can say NATO states are using their command of international economy to wage economic war on this or that country - with various degrees of success.

On your number 4, you are patently wrong.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Likely another soul who wishes for that which cannot be - a form of Secularist Muslim Enlightenment that is analogous to Europe's.

Life is tough all over.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Funny about head of snake; that is evidently how Saudis characterized Iran to their American interlocutors; if the new reports of those meetings were to believed.

It is, in any case, too late in the day.

Saudis have succeeded in making themselves and Wahhabi Islam a mainstream representative of Islam. They also have coopted the Nanafi school and its offshoot Deobandi as well as Naqshbandi Sufi order into their Sharia - as far as I know.

I suggest you read some online comments by Muslims expats in Saudi Arabia - they are full of joy that they can live there and experience authentic Muslim lives.

[Thomas]

"Someone in the Borg appears to be pushing an agenda here. And has enough clout to have the NYT publish such views."

Someone is a streetwise individual who sees the Earthen Dam of Deceit has a soggy bottom waiting to burst and is climbing up the valley.

In this Rebellion of Borgian Tyranny, Someone's effort is acceptable to the cause and can help others break the Borgian Knot on their chains to join in.

Resistance is futile, unless your human then it becomes the challenge of your soul.

[Amir]

Anyone wondering why Belgium is providing so much of the upper echelons of the Jihadi cannon fodder? The late King Boudwain invited the then Saudi head King (Fahd, I think) and at the end of the 60's they requested that Saudi Arabia send preachers and builds the Grand Mosque of Brussels. It's director is STILL provided by the Saudi embassy and is a diplomate. Recently the head was expelled in all quietness as he had breached protocol and preached (what do you think...Wahabi style call to Jihad) with the excuse that he as the director has no preaching privileges but can name other "oh so moderate" preachers.

[Thomas]

Ishmael,

On another thread you were explaining your view of how Sultan Tayyip is a Nouveau Khan creation. I would argue it looks that way because his early ally Gulen is one of their kindred spirits. It is a short train ride from eastern Pennsylvania to the capital of think tank land and after the falling out between the two the Sultan started receiving bad press here.

[oofda]

Colonel,
Pepe Escobar reports that Turkey is massing units along its southern border. He offers a couple of theories for this.

http://southfront.org/turkey-is-ready-to-invide-syria-concentrated-1000-units-of-military-equipment-at-the-border/

[VietnamVet]

FB Ali

Yes, the House of Saud are villains on the world stage. Played best by "Bandar Bush", the paymaster at the birth of the Islamic State.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_bin_Sultan

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html

Once again desert Arabs are stoking war to control the Fertile Crescent and head chop heretics. But, they are not alone. Turkey wants a rebirth of the Ottoman Empire. Israel needs Muslims fighting each other not them. Russia is at war to keep its Syrian military bases. The enlightened West to enrich military contractors is bombing here, there, everywhere. Sunnis in Iraq have been at war with the USA for a quarter century.

There is an additional cause rarely mention. There is a concerted campaign to transfer wealth from the many to the few.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/30/why-inequality-is-to-blame-for-the-rise-of-the-islamic-state/

The Islamic State is a people’s response to exploitation and murder by using their cultural and religious traditions to join together and fight back against the foreign invaders.

As the exploitation spreads and suffering intensifies due to poverty, war, refugees and climate change; fundamentalist backlash will spread across the world. In the USA, it has reach the point where Donald Trump no longer has to use dog whistles but point blank tells the truth as he sees it.

[bth]

So what is the internal Islamic mechanism that moderates radical Sunni extremism? Is it broken? Does a social control mechanism no longer exist? Must it be externally imposed?