"You can pay me now or you can pay me later"

 

"American officials feel Turkey is largely to blame for overreacting to what was a relatively minor violation of national airspace.

Turkey says the Russian plane strayed just over a mile into its airspace, and was there for only 17 seconds when it was fired on by a Turkish F-16. The Russian jet crashed in Syria, but Turkey's president said Wednesday that some pieces of it fell inside his country.

A visibly angry Vladimir Putin spoke on Russian television after the incident and denied the Su-24 ever left Syrian airspace. He lashed out at Turkey, calling its move a "stab in the back" and accusing the Turks of helping ISIS.

Video posted by Syrian rebels appeared to show the body of one the Russian pilots in the hands of Syrian rebel fighters. Russia says the pilot was murdered by the rebels after parachuting to the ground, but the circumstances of his death after ejecting from the stricken plane remain unclear.

Only on Wednesday did Russia confirm the other pilot was safe on its sprawling base near the northwest Syrian city of Latakia."  CBS News

-------------

What Turkey has managed to do with yesterday's attack on a Russian air force fighter is to solidify Russian determination to see Turkey's jihadist friends defeated. 

"You can pay me now or you can pay me later" is an old American expression.  The phrase transmits the thought that retribution for an offense WILL BE EXACTED eventually.

The Turks were unhappy because US and Russian air strikes destroyed a lot of the big Turkish owned tanker trucks with which IS was exporting its oil through Turkey?   Erdogan's relatives will lose money because of the destruction of these trucks?

The Turks were upset because Russia was attacking rebel Turkmen (ethnic Turks who are Syrian) on the Syrian side of the border?   And, what?   They thought they could do this and then hide behind NATO's nuclear shield? 

Well, pilgrims, a price will be paid, maybe not today...  pl 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-s400-surface-to-air-missiles-syria-turkey-fighter-jet-nato/

Comments

[Haassaan]

The British middle conservative voice has been quite impressive in sniffing out the BS. While the New York Times has been putting out one state sponsored propaganda puff piece after another (similar to The Guardian), if you read the comments, you will note that a good chunk of the American people are not aligned with the Borg, at least as concerns this conflict.

Trump supporters have been pretty unified in their opposition to American policies in Syria. Much of the American conservatives support of Putin is based in racism, Obama hatred, tough-guy worship, and dumb logic. Never-the-less, much of the American conservative support of Putin's Syria policies is based on good old-fashioned common-sense like that of the Daily Mail readers.

It is disappointing to note how American Progressives, usually reliably anti-conflict have been co-opted by the Borg in this instance. Much of that is due to the endless anti-Obama assault waged by conservatives on the administration, they've become convinced that anyone opposing Obama is doing so to undermine his Presidency.

[Ghost ship]

RT.COM is reporting the same

https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-russia-syria-airbase/

Perhaps the US and France should supply Russia with their IFF codes otherwise how are the Russians to differentiate between Turkish and American F16s?

[Babak Makkinejad]

It is Russia's fault:

http://csis.org/publication/danger-games-russia-and-nato-collide

How this person became a VP, I am not sure.

Does one need to empty one's mind?

[Farmer Don]

Man this is one tough pilot!

""I can't wait until I get the all-clear from the medics, so that I can step back into the ranks. I'm going to ask our command to keep me on this base — I have a debt to repay, for my commander."

[oofda]

According to Russian media, the surviving pilot said that he heard no warnings-

[Fred]

I can imagine Ambassador Churkin addressing his Turkish counterpart at the UN the same way Stevenson did to Ambassador Zorin back in '63. I wonder what the great diplomat Samantha Power will have to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgR8NjNw__I

[b]

@Ryan - that "Israel just hit Hizbullah in Syria" is currently an evergreen rumor with no factual basis. The Russian have told Israel to stay out and it follows that order.

---

Russia today hit heavily on the "Turkmen" area near the Turkish border. From the air, from sea, from the ground. Hizbullah is advancing into the area. (Those "Turkmen" are mostly foreigners from Central Asia & China.)

Turkey badly miscalculated in its attempt to create a "safe zone" or "no-fly-zone" for those Turkmen. The economic costs will be very significant.

Today Russia bombed truck parking lots in Azaz, 2 km from the Turkish border and bombed Turkish "aid" trucks at the Bab al-Hawa border crossing.

Russia now demands that only UN verified and checked aid passes those crossings. Everything else will be bombed. No exceptions. There goes the main supply route for Nusra et al and lots of dirty business for Erdogan's friends and family ...

Russia will deploy 2 S-400 units to Syria. Three additional air fields will soon be ready (2 are for helos). Expect additional electronic wizardry, expect additional planes but no significant Russian infantry troops on the ground.

Obama seems to have agreed to the "safe zone" escalation Turkey demanded. The U.S. just launched an operation to start creating that zone. It is now bombing along the newly invented "Mar´a line".

WaPo
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-france-to-press-allies-for-more-assets-in-fight-against-the-islamic-state/2015/11/24/34d02346-92e0-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

/quote/
Among several coalition priorities in Syria, the United States has begun a series of airstrikes in an area known as the “Mar’a line,” named for a town north of Aleppo in the northwest. There, a 60-mile stretch to the Euphrates River in the east is the only remaining part of the Syria-Turkey border under Islamic State control.

The administration had delayed beginning operations in the area because U.S. aircraft were needed in operations farther east, and it has been uncertain that local opposition forces­ would be able to hold the territory if it could be cleared with airstrikes.
/endquote/

So if Obama was unsure about the "local opposition forces" ability to hold there why has that changed now? Erdogan promised to provide more "Turkmen" to hold that zone? The WaPo regime stenographers seem unable to tell.

I expect that the Russians will have a word or two, or a bomb or two, in that "safe zone" discussion. I find it unlikely that they will agree to it.

[X]

All the talk of NATO not coming to defend Turkey, and Turkey's relative position of weakness....perhaps forgets one thing

What if Turkey feels betrayed by NATO?

Will the turks then try to send in more jihadis to Europe? I mean they are in the geographical position to facilitate the process.

Definitely something to watch out for IMO, but other more knowledgeable readers feel free to correct me.

[Fred]

Haralambos,

Actual espionage might be more useful in this regard. But then we got rid of much of our humint capabilities. Thank you James Clapper.

[Thomas]

"Does one need to empty one's mind?"

No, merely sell your soul and bow to Borg Brother then your career and material cares will be satisfied.

As an ancient wise man noted, he could con, cajole or corrupt all but one in a thousand.

[Babak Makkinejad]

You wrote:

"a developing suspicion that the apparent lack of seriousness of the powers that be in the West about combating the 'Islamic State' indicates that they do may not really want it defeated – and may have been strongly complicit in its creation."

This was the position of Ayatollah Khamenei and many people in Iran.

I suppose now it is a conviction.

[Babak Makkinejad]

There is also a smaller risk that NATO will find itself at war with Iran.

[turcopolier]

Babak

"and may have been strongly complicit in its creation." And you believe that as well? What is the evidence? pl

[Thomas]

"Someone might perhaps point out to Obama that his comments about the Russian priority being to attack 'the moderate opposition that might be future members of an inclusive Syrian government' are being read against the background of the videos from the incident."

It would be of no use, Walrus is right the man is a full on narcissist and is making his step forward to a reckless and stupid act. What Barack truly doesn't understand is some of those early supporters see him as a craven coward and have given up hope. So if he falls, there won't be many standing around to help him.

[Babak Makkinejad]

I do not know what to believe any longer.

As the Persian saying goes: "Don't know if I should belief my neighbor's oath or the rooster's tail sticking out of his pocket."

[Matthew]

B: Why only two? You would think the Russians would want to blanket the area so that they could intercept 20-30 Turkish jets simultaneously.

BTW, does anyone know how long it takes to build a power plant? I'm amazed that Russia hasn't yet made Crimea independent of Ukraine's electricity supply.

[Trey N]

Well, I'm curious to know how everyone is absolutely positive that it was a Turkish F-16 and not an American F-16 that did the shoot-down, since both fly from the Incirlik airbase.

As pissed off as Russia is now, their attitude could damn well be, "Shoot'em all down, let God sort'em out."

With their delusions of world hegemony evaporating into the ether, the neocons are bound and determined to start WW III. Sampson option, Masada and all that crap. The world had better wake up and start exterminating these vermin ASAP in every country they currently infest -- better to give them their death wish now before they really do take the rest of us with them.

[Chris Chuba]

Your comment actually dovetails with my comment / question above.
From a military point of view, it doesn't make sense for the U.S. to be ramping up operations against ISIS in Syria, does it?
I mean we have the Russians and now other air forces pounding them there and now the R+6 ground forces.

If the U.S. really wanted to defeat ISIS we should actually provide real support to the central Iraq army the Shiite militias to help them re-take the large cities in Iraq such as Ramadi and Mosul. Oh well, we'd rather thwart Russian plans then defeat ISIS. Our leaders are such small minded idiots. The MSM media is useless and couldn't figure out the shape of a square, let alone do anything else other than repeat what the administration tells them to say and FOX is the worst of them all.

[David Habakkuk]

Babak Makkinejad,

I stress that this is not my own view. Certainly, there is a strong conspiratorial element. But "mush for brains", to use Putin's phrase, is a large part of the story.

[turcopolier]

Trey N

How about a strike from a Klingon war bird in orbit projecting a hologram that just looked like an F-16? It could happen! pl

[BostonB]

"Russians may have a strong case in Turkish shootdown"
By Maj. Gen. Charles J. Dunlap (USAF, ret.), Executive Director, Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke University Law School
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/261300-russians-may-have-a-strong-case-in-turkish-shootdown

[J]

Colonel, TTG,

The survivor of the SU24 shoot-down navigator Captain Konstantin Murahtin was interviewed by Russian TV with the following question regarding the '10 times' warning that the Turks keep talking about:

Interviewer Michael Akinchenko Directorate of Information Programs Correspondent

Question: Tell me, the Turkish side insists that the F-16 has repeatedly warned you that you cross the Turkish border.

A: Actually, there was no warning. No radio traffic or visual. Generally no contact. So we went on the combat course in the normal mode.

The Russian Nav also stated that if the Russians wanted to warn in a similar situation they would have shown themselves flying a parallel course for the offending aircraft to see, unlike the Turk action. The Nav went on to say that the only warning they had was when the F-16's ordinance came into their aircraft's tail.

[since no advance warning had no time to make evasive maneuvers including radio traffic.]

My question, will DoD release their monitoring of the supposed Turk warning to the Russian aircraft, or will this be left in the either by the Borg?

[b]

A S-400 unit or battery consists of two radars, one command vehicle and up to 12 launchers. It can cover in a radius of up to 400km.

Two units will be enough to cover west and center Syria, most of south Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and most of Israel.

[The Beaver]

Fred

I think that the best situation will be at the Vienna meetings with Lavrov, defending Assad, against the "coalition".

[Trey N]

And maybe it did! ;-)

I'm just saying that given how hard NATO(US)has been trying to drag Russia into an open war over the last two years, first in Ukraine and now in Syria, how do we really know the nationality of the pilot that fired the missile?? He could just as well have been American or Israeli as Turk, couldn't he? Especially given that such foreign (mercenary?)pilots are said to be manning "Saudi" planes in Yemen.

While it most likely was a Turkish plane/pilot that shot down the Russian plane,I'm just asking how we're 110% absolutely, positively certain that another nation/agency wasn't directly involved??? Even for a crazy #$&*! like Erdogan, this was a tremendously risky step to take (and even with the new military top dog in Turkey, I'm very surprised that the Turkish generals signed off on something like this). Erdogan is obviously quite desperate about how things are going now in Syria, and I'm not sure why. What vital interests of his are at stake to make him commit to such a risky course of action as shooting down a Russian bomber?