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24 November 2015


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Here's a video of a "moderate" TOW crew firing up the Russian helicopter.


While they deployed the weapon quickly they might want to do some more crew training. I note the loader forgot to arm the weapon in the "Up" postion. The gunner had to do it when he tried to fire it and reached up to flip the arming lever. Unfortunately, a hit for the bad guys.



Yes, Type 1 has priority because it is a foreign capital earner. these strikes were mostly on Type ! trucks. pl

Chris Chuba

I know that hindsight is 20/20 but given Erdogan's past warnings regarding possible action regarding Turkish air space and his recent fuming regarding the R+6 advance against the Turkmen I find it odd that the unfortunate ground attack Su-24 was without any air cover.

I am curious if anyone has any comments regarding this lapse in an otherwise very professionally conducted Russian military operation. I feel very bad for the two Russian pilots and I know that I will be infuriated by the Borg media coverage.

A. Pols

The SU 24 is a close air support/ground attack aircraft, not a fighter interceptor. Like an A10 it would be vulnerable.
The western MSM description as a "fighter" is a deliberate obfuscation.

Chris Chuba

Does technology exist that would allow Russians to easily distinguish Turkish from U.S. aircraft operating in Syria other than de-confliction notices?

I can imagine Putin possibly using this as a REASONABLE justification to build out an air base just for air superiority air craft and declare all of Syria off limits to Turkish Jets.


Contra to the Washington Times report, the US is not backing Turkey's version, but trying to stay neutral for now- at least til the facts can be established.


David Habakkuk


With reference to the report in the 'Washington Times' of the top U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad backing the Turkish version of events, to which 'BostonB' linked – and also Babak Makkinejad's reference to my estimates of public opinion in the UK.

According to the 'Washington Times':

'Col. Warren has made no secret of the U.S.'s displeasure with Russian bombing campaign in Syria. They assert Mr. Putin is mostly bombing moderate rebel groups opposed to Mr. Assad and devoting little time to the Islamic State terror army.'

Currently, the 'best rated' comment on the report on the shootdown on the 'MailOnline' – the paper which more than any other articulates the views of a very large section of naturally conservative 'Middle Britain – reads:

'If Turkey has shot down a Russian aircraft this is an outrage which will have far reaching conseqences. They are clearly the main supporters if ISIS along with their NATO allies which together have enabled ISIS to stockpile trillions of dollars in oil revenues and supplied them with arms all with the sole aim of deposing Assad. The world needs to wake up and unify before this gets completely out of hand.'

(See http://tinyurl.com/pmes2vv .)

When I last looked, this comment has 15,420 approvals, and 1,053 disapprovals.

Yes, that is the current situation. A comment suggesting that not simply Erdogan, but Col. Warren's superiors, Obama, Cameron, Merkel, etc etc are actually covertly supporting the jihadists whom 'Middle Britain' almost universally fears, and wants to see destroyed, gets more than 15,000 endorsements.

Admittedly, I do not regularly look at the 'MailOnline' site, but I simply cannot recall having seen a comment with that number of endorsements.

It is not clear to me whether the dramatic change in opinion here over the past months is something distinctively British, or whether it simply represents a more pronounced version of trends happening elsewhere.

If it is a reflection of what is happening elsewhere, it is simply world-shattering.

But if I was anyone in NATO, I would stop referring to 'moderate rebel groups'.

Readers of the 'Mail' may often be ignorant or bigoted, but there are certain kinds of BS which most of them can see right through and out the other side.

This kind of stupid talk simply leaves people asking: are these people totally out of touch with reality – or is there actually a covert agenda of supporting precisely those people who are trying to blow us up?


what I'm getting at is this:


These Uighur Jihadis are reportedly in Idlib, in northwestern Syria - Erdogan's 'safe-zone-land'.

I know, the article is a product from Clifford May's neocon fever swamp FDD, but still. Combine it with Lin's article, and the saga of Uighurs stranded in Thailand with (forged?) Turkish passports and an interesting picture suggests itself:

Uighurs to Turkey:


Uighurs in Turkey & Syria:



I'm stilly trying to form an opinion on the matter.

Ken Roberts

Maybe someone can clarify -- I must have a mis-understanding of modern Turkey. My naive view is that Turkey has two significant (in international affairs) "actors" -- the generals who are rational and pretty much Western/NATO aligned, and Ergodan who is unpredictable. Maybe also business interests as a third significant "actor", who want commerce to go on profitably without turmoil.

This shoot-down cannot have happened without concurrence of "generals" because of the two aircraft used. Yet it appears so extraordinarily foolish an action. Even if want to attack the Russians, why this method and publicity? So what is the backstory? What am I missing?

Babak Makkinejad

He has 90% approval rating in Russia and if DH's estimation is to be believed, he is also a hero to a good portion of Englishmen.

He has a lot of tactical flexibility.

The thing of it is that Gulfies still think that they can use ISIS against the Shia Crescent without getting themselves burnt.

They have to be disabused of that notion.


I doubt the Army of Conquest fighters worry too much about Western attitudes and this video will certainly boost morale among its intended audience, other rebel fighters, who have been under near constant and until now unanswered Russian aerial attack.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of Moderate Rebel/Opposition, that refers to their or some of their Western ideas about government and religion not about war or being warriors in battle.

There was nothing moderate about the Russian pilots who just minutes before were raining down hellfire on the rebels anymore than the rebels having a turkey shoot at the parachuting enemy was moderate.

Babak Makkinejad

I agree with Col. Lang: many Middle Easterners are not stupid; they are cunning and mistake that with intelligence. Turks are making the same mistakes that Saddam Hussein and the Ba'athists did in Iraq.


Turkey joined Nato in the early years of the Cold War and it was a master move by the Americans (and also Turks). That 6 decades later it isn't right any more may be obvious but maybe Nato should have been ended 20 years ago.


Chris Chuba

Sure. IFF, but we would have to exchange IFF codes. pl

Babak Makkinejad

Stab in the back:



It has been cancelled - according to the BBC.

Babak Makkinejad

One thing that Russia can do is to stop construction work on the nuclear power station that they started building early in 2015 in Turkey - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkuyu_Nuclear_Power_Plant

João Carlos

I fear that turkey will make more attacks to russian airplanes until Russia have no other option than retaliate. Then Turkey call for NATO help.

Sadly I think US will go to help Turkey (well, the Borg want it) and we will have the WWIII.


If the 'moderates' having shot the parachutists turns out to be true, or just believed, then 'moderate' is going to be hard to spin.


"Bomb something of value to Turkey in Syria? already doing it."

They have not yet done a strategic carpet bombing of the area where the pilots were executed. Yet.

Also, sometimes allow your opponent to play into your hands, as some mentioned above next flight attacking YPG gets the treatment.

Ghost ship

In case you thought it doesn't make sense, this was supposed to be a reply to Cee's comment below about James Jeffrey on MSNBC.

Eric Dönges

Combat death ?

Shooting at aircrew parachuting from a downed aircraft is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. Publicly gloating over the dead bodies is considered uncivilized in most of the world, and a direct challenge in all of it.


Your link is screwed (points to itself) it should be:
As I post this total upvotes stand at 16482
I hope the whole comments thread won't be summarily deleted as happened on the BBC a while ago.

Babak Makkinejad

Pan-Turkism has been with us for more than a century. It is yet another dead-end, inspired by ideas of Western Diocletian thinkers and political philosophers.

Why don't Azerbaijan Republic and Turkey join one another in a new improved Grand Turkic Republic? Or Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan?

In Azerbaijan, the Persian Tallish minority is being actively suppressed culturally since its existence negates the whole ideological basis of that country.

For Turkey to use Uighurs to lock horn with China is beyond stupid; in my opinion - but I also do not doubt it; heard about the existence of tens of thousands of blank Turkish passports in Southeast Asian Embassies intended for Uighurs.

Turks do not understand Chinese; there are no rights in China - Chinese would just round up trouble-makers and kill them if they feel sufficiently threatened. Just like what they did in Tien An Man Square.

The Gulfies, had they been China's neighbors and had they had directed Jihadists against her, would not have remained in that Jihadi business for long.


I hope the various policy-makers read The Guns Of August or Thirteen Days over the Thanksgiving Holiday, while they take a break from thoughtlessly staggering from incident to incident. Or maybe we should take up a collection & send them all Hersey's Hiroshima... should be a lot of used copies laying around for cheap... & unread.

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