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24 November 2015

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Jose

Turkey will get no gas for the winter plus Kurds will now become allies of Russia (like France)..NATO will be revealed as a fraud.

Kunuri

Seems like the Turkmens shot the pilots as they were descending, Russians have great ejection systems in their planes, so it is safe to assume that they ejected safely and were alive.

Kunuri

IZ, the helicopter that was shot at took an anti tank missile but landed safely in Latakia. I agree with you, time to stop RTE.

turcopolier

Eakens

Wrong. Syria is a sovereign state that has invited Russian forces into their territory. If Turkey shot down this aircraft over Syria that was an international aggression. pl

confusedponderer

"Finally, the two pilots seem to have been gunned down as they were parachuting inside Syria "

Which, if I am not mistaken, is another war crime by Syria's ever moderate opposition. On those video they are chanting Allahu Akbar over the bodies of the pilots. They can't help themselves I presume.

The Turks begin to display an unpeasant disposition, in deed and association.

My impression is that Turkey is trying to dissuade the R+6 from attacking the rebel groups enjoying Turkish support, trying to get their buffer zone through the backdoor. If that is so, they probably won't get NATO support in their endeavour, which would be good.

Re: these rebel groups being 'Turkomen':

'Turkomen' in Turkish use is apparently a quite flexible term and may include anybody from Crimea to Uighuristan (China) - after all turkish peoples - which then would suggest that these 'Turkomen' could very well be what is commonly known as 'foreign fighters' - and Islamists.

"MEMRI TV translated a video from Beirut-based Al Mayadeen of how the Chinese militant group, Turkistan Islamic Party (TIP), is setting up training camp with their families, along with a new colony of 3,500 Uyghurs in a nearby village. This was also reported in September by another Arab source.

The video showed TIP flag flies in Jisr al Shughur in Idlib province that was just taken from Assad forces back in April, and noted that “after the raid, this Syrian city looks more like China than Damascus.”"

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/turkeys-passport-scandal-and-settlements-in-syria/

oofda

To add to that- Putin has described this as a knife in the back.
BTW, Turkish jets overfly Greek territorial islands all the time, and while Greek AF jets sortie to intercept them, they aren't shot down. The Turkish AF should be very careful when overlying Greek islands in the future.

http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2015/11/24/n_7928363.shtml

confusedponderer

"If Turkey shot down this aircraft over Syria that was an international aggression"

Precisely.

turcopolier

Stueee

What's that, a hog call? If you think the Erdogan, Davutoglu and the AKP give a damn about what the US wants you are not paying attention. pl

Cee

Ambassador James Jeffrey was just on MSNBC and mentioned the cruel treatment of Russia to ISIS.

You can't make this up!!!

Cee

jld,

By those MODERATE rebels?

JJackson

Re the tankers. My understanding was that the tanker park is used by independent oil traders who leave their trucks, some time for weeks, in a queue awaiting their turn to be filled. Once in the trucks the oil is fungible and will go to Assad, Turkey, IS or JaN/FSA.

user1234

Ooh, not good.

Honest un-obfuscated investigation? most unlikely.
Response in kind by Russia? out of the question.
Bomb something of value to Turkey in Syria? already doing it.
NATO openly disciplining Turkey over this matter? most unlikely.
Russia threatening economic sanctions vs Turkey? Maybe but not too bright, since destabilized Turkey is no good.

Anything else?

eakens

Needless to say, that won't be a meeting that will happen

turcopolier

JJackson

There are two separate IS oil distribution operations. 1 - Turkish owned oil tank trucks that haul large amounts of oil through Turkey to Turkish ports on the Black Sea, Aegean Sea and Mediterranean where it is sold into tankers of varying and obscure identity. As soon as the oils is in the ships it disappears into the world spot market. Oil is the ultimate fungible commodity and can be sold at discount prices in many countries or trans-shipped into other "bottoms." this trade across Turkey would not be possible without the collusion of the Turkish state. 2 - the other distribution of crude and refined products takes place at the spigot ends of a large network of small bore pipes where it is sold to small scale "jobbers" with a truck and some 55 gallon oil drums. These little guys are not IS. they sell their product throughout IS territory as well as in all the surrounding countries and territories. pl

JJackson

I was having another look at the first of your links (parachutist being shot at). Given where this plane was shot down doesn't the terrain look rather flat for that section of the boarder?

Babak Makkinejad

I agree, Russia will do nothing against Turkey.

The best course for them is to ignore this clear provocation and continue on doing what they are doing in Syria.

If David Habakkuk's estimation is correct of public opinion in UK, this incident only further confirms that Turkey is another supporter of Muslim terrorists.

Already, the name of Islam is mud in the West, Turkey just re-confirmed it.

eakens

My position was that Turkey should not have shot down the Russian jet, even if it had briefly crossed into Turkish airspace given the Russian's objective is in Syria.

The question is the frequency and extent in which Erdogan can go off the rails, and continue to run to NATO.

Babak Makkinejad

There are Turcomans in Iraq.

In the siege of the city of Amerli, a Turcoman city by ISIS, Turkey did not lift a finger to help - the siege was lifted by a combination of Iraqi Shia and Iranian forces.

And all throughout the siege I knew Turkey would not help; since Amerli was a Shia city.

Aka

all,
I wonder what Russia's "political class" would demand from Putin. They will demand some action and Putin can't simply ignore them.

Babak Makkinejad

You do not understand the Rus, they have been attacked by Muslims in Belsen, in Moscow, in Sinai, and now by Turkey; another traditional Muslim enemy.

They will fight on.

jld

The first link is a fake, sorry, many have been caught beside me.

ISL

user1234

How about extending S400 coverage to Kurdish airspace? Turkey can find out how NATO airplanes have fell behind in the technology. How about funneling some good anti-aircraft missiles to the Kurds? How about Special Ops forces providing training to Kurds in Turkey?

And since when have nations prioritized finance over pride? See US actions in the South China Sea for example.

Babak: What historical evidence do you have that Russia does nothing to even the score? If you had ever spent a night drinking vodka with Russians you would never say that.

Trent

Origen, lots of Turkmen in Syria. Especially in that area.

jld

No, it's the other way around, the copter landed safely in the countryside for some reason (problems?) and THEN was shot at and destroyed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0

confusedponderer

Babak,
true, and you make a fair point.

Doesn't mean Turkey doesn't use the term loosely in Syria where it serves their purposes. To them it's fair game aüpparently, since they probably think that the provinces should be Turkish again anyway.

If Christina Lin is right, then Turkey has settled Sunni Islamists - Uighur Chinese - as 'Wehrbauern' (~ Soldier Peasants) in Syria. The general idea would apparently be to have armed settlers defending the extended Turkish frontier and change the ethnic fabric of northern Syria in Turkey's favour?

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