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24 November 2015


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Babak Makkinejad

US jets were buzzing Western & Eastern Iranian borders regularly for more than a decade. Iranians ignored them.

I am not sure what US was looking to accomplish.

ex-PFC Chuck

For what it's worth John Helmer, reporting from Moscow, asserts that the yesterday's shootdown was planned and deliberate (not in reaction to a territorial overflight), and coordinated with the US government.


I don't know whether he knew that and I didn't say that.

What I said was that, if Turkey deliberately shot down a Russian aircraft in Syrian airspace, that that then was an international aggression.

US motives are ambuiguous. There is that wing that likes it to see Russia 'chastised', out of exceptionalist principle, because they want regime change in Syria, because they want to expand NATO and didn't get their changce in Ukraine so far etc pp. Then there are those who, less vocally, distrust Turkey, couldn't care less about Assad, and actually welcome Russia's bombing of Jihadis.

The presidential line will thus liklely be a narative of political fiction that serves these various contradictory political goals rather than an accurate expression of discernable reality or events that took place.

You get that from people like Stoltenberg also: He adressed the issue saying something to the effect that Turkey's airspace was invulnerable. To wit, in doing so, he did not say where the aircraft was downed, but he implied that the Turks were justified.

Babak Makkinejad


Russia-Turkey Economic Fact Box



Tyler - by way of Ramzan Kadyrov: one of a long line. sometime back I posted a link to a Russian Documentary on The Wild aka Savage division of Caucasians fighting in World War I. Has lots of footage from the early XX century - Kadyrov's ancestors. This new version is fully subtitled. I think it's a gem.



FB Ali

Good point, it had to be a planned ambush because of the timeline, which I originally saw estimated at 28 seconds but has been determined to be 17 seconds.



Turkey took that area from Syria in the 1930s and it may still be contested territory.


People are waiting for maps from officials. FYI Google provides scale, terrain (topo feature on the map view), and coordinate (in the URL) information than the diagram maps. Yamadi is marked (the two points are a fiddle) because it was reported to be the location of the shooting of the parachutists. As more information becomes available you can plug the coordinates into a Google map and make your own zoomable big picture. NOT SURE HOW THIS DISPLAYS. It may contain information from my system.




The idea, as we are seeing today, would be to eliminate all of Erdogan"s 'moderate" jihadis from this area whether with a spectacular show (i.e. carpet bombing ) or the continuing grinding down phase with renewed urgency. As you have been reading many here believe Russia won't back down which I agree with.

different clue


If Russia decides to sink Erdogan Junior's tanker fleet, Russia won't do it "in order TO" harm Israel, but if Israel complains, Russia will express a sort of tisk tisk tut tut regret over Israel's "poor choice" of allies in this matter.

different clue

alba etie,

Perhaps you still harbor an "elevendy mentional" chessplayer view of Obama's abilities and intentions and are filtering the press conference through that hopeful-vision filter?

Or perhaps my pathotoxic-narcissist petulant-child view of Obama's drives and imperatives biases me to hear that "We are the Coalition of Moderate Jihadi Terror" now more than ever?

Time will tell which theory is more reality-based.

different clue

What if domestic Western citizen-opponents of the Coalition of Moderate Jihad were to organize multi-million-person marches with all the participants dressed in Orthodox-Clergy-inspired cassocks (or whatever those things are) and carrying Eastern-Orthodox-style "icon-posters" of Putin and Assad through the streets of all the most media-saturated major cities?


No evidence. But if I were in their shoes, then I would. Erdogan is a nutcase.


what does that make us for electing Dubya & Obummer?
But then again we don't act for our own national interest b/ that of a foreign power. Ever since Kennedy got assassinated anyway.



1. The F-15 is an air superiority fighter. What other role would it have in a joint bombing mission with other aircraft better suited for the bombing.

2. I assume the Syrians/Russians would be less likely to attack Turkish aircraft, violating Syrian airspace, if they are accompanied by such US aircraft.


Six Turkish F-16s, four US F-15s, an American AC-130 and three drones were involved, the report said


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