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14 November 2015

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bell

read b's overview today for some alternate perspectives.. angry arab had a point, by point suggestion here..

bell

my suggestion would be to stop funding terrorists - moderate and immoderate.. unfortunately the west is guilty of supporting saudi arabia and qatar - 2 countries high on the list that are fully supportive of isis/alqaeda.. turkey isn't far behind.. maybe some re-think has to happen where selling weapons isn't the first priority..

The Twisted Genius

john,

They want to die and have their 72 virgins, too. I'd be happy to send them on their way. Declaring war by itself does nothing. We have to declare war and then kill them.

Amileoj

This strikes me as an extremely important point. IS is not yet a state in the sense of being formally recognized as such by other states (to my knowledge at least), but they are surely at the very least a proto-state, for all the reasons you describe.

This differentiates them from even Al-Qa'ida at its most institutionalized, when it was a kind of para-state within Afghanistan.

There is a serious objection I think that a formal Declaration of War gives this enemy too much of what it wants. Obviously, to declare war in the historical language of inter-state conflict is, to some extent, tantamount to a recognition of at least de facto statehood.

But perhaps to that we should say 'so be it.' The advantages of clarity with respect to who the enemy is (and, just as important, who it is *not*) may well be worth it.

Bobo

TTG
I support and honor your proposal but the following must be accomplished in this endeavor.
1. China, Russia and the USA must come to aggreement on what is the outcome and together work for its outcome.
2. Takfiri W needs to be routed out at its foundation. If that takes down SA so be it.
3. All Jihadist State Support needs to be stopped with force.
4. Monetary Support to IS and all its brother entities needs an immediate ceasing and the supporters punished.
5. Nation building has no part in this endeavour.
6. A complete communication black out is required for these actions. Word of mouth will suffice.

Thoughts of a neophyte who has had enough. Good Luck.

Tyler

TTG,

The West could solve its problems if it'd enforce its borders, stop importing Muslims but the boat load, and deport every non Westerner, illegal, refugee, or whatever.

We don't need another war. Why fight them over there if we are just going to import them here.

Tyler

You can expect these attacks as long as you continue to import more Muslims en masse.

Didn't Mao state "guerillas move through the people like fish through the sea"? I'm still waiting for one of these pontificating chin beards from the Borg to explain the benefits of importing low IQ foreigners who hate Western Civ and all it stands for beyond "authentic falafel!".

The Twisted Genius

bell,

Absolutely true. Too bad we are all in such awe of the "job creators."

The Twisted Genius

Tyler,

I'm right with you on enforcing the borders, but all non-Westerners is a step too far. Do you mean non-white Christians? Do you consider Italians, Greeks and Slavs as Westerners? Should we have left the Hmong to be slaughtered?

Omo Naija

....but also in Syria and Iraq......why stop there? Why not go all the way to the water well of the jihadist? This very statement speaks to the unseriousness of Western Governments to confront this issue.

They are all pussyfooting around. Lighting up buildings, posturing on TV. Not one government official has said anything close to addressing this issue head on.

I am so frustrated. The realization that our governments are so captive to to the interest of foreign entities just galls. What exactly has to happen before they face up to reality and share some home truth with the citizenry? A dirty bomb?

Omo Naija

What tripe. You need to get out more if you think this makes any sense whatsoever.

Babak Makkinejad

TTG:

What is the positive content of a possible French or American war against ISIS?

What is the shape of the Peace to follow this War?

What are the equivalents of the "Atlantic Charter" or the "Four Freedoms"?

Fred

TTG,

For a start the President should fire the neocons serving in the Executive Branch who have served the Republic so badly this past decade. Second announce we will work jointly with the R+6 to destroy ISIS in Syria. (To make sure that is understood to be real provide Russia some of our sea/airlift capabilities immediately and invite President Putin to Washington to develop the joint strategy). Third should be a Executive Order directing the Federal Reserve that no country's financial institutions known to be handling Islamic State funding, openly or not, will be allowed to do business with the US Banking system. Fourth publish a list of all the Saudi and GCC millionaires suspected of providing funding to ISIS. (Let them deal with the public repercussions.)

Omo Naija

Isis blew up a Russia civilian airliner with over 200 dead. Thats higher than the casualty in Paris at last count. And its the Russians fighting the good fight against this Jihadist.

They know from first hand experience how vicious these folks can be. Leveling Grozny and pacifying the Caucuses was a battle worth fighting. Something similar is needed, but not at Iran, Iraq, Syria et al......its our client states.

Tyler

TTG,

Non Westerner in the context of this. Why the hell are we importing 100k Syrians to the US?

Come now. Those are Europeans. Hmong aren't, last time I checked, blowing themselves up and executing people for drawings of the Buddha. Let's not resort to rhetoric.

Tyler

Omo,

Your ridiculous emotional response only hammers my point about the emotional mindset of the Left being unable to deal with the problem it created.

Lesly

TTG, I would support your proposal if Congress had the sense to acknowledge real foes from potential allies and the resolve to pursue "neutral" parties, however it may hurt their reelection PAC.

The Twisted Genius

Babak,

"What is the positive content of a possible French or American war against ISIS?"

Positive content of a war? It's death, destruction and misery. I don't think I understand your question.

"What is the shape of the Peace to follow this War?"

Islamic State and Wahabbis in general are reduced to angry men in the mosque with no resources or ability to export violence. Admittedly a tall order.

What are the equivalents of the "Atlantic Charter" or the "Four Freedoms"?

As far as I'm concerned, the "Four Freedoms" are timeless, as are Norman Rockwell's renditions of those concepts.

Origin

It seems logical that the Syrian men flooding Europe are fleeing to avoid their individual and personal responsibility owing to their own country for self-determination and good government. Perhaps all physically fit males from Syria who have escaped to Europe should rounded up, given a three weeks long civics course in the benefits of a secular democracy and then put on a boat back to Syria and turned over to the Russians to be utilized in cleaning up their own country.

When Syria is again at peace and they can show they helped, then they can come back to visit and shop.

Fixing Syria is their responsibility, no ours or Europe's.

Omo Naija

Nothing emotional about my comment. I love this forum because of the quality of comments and expertise on display. Your outburst is at best nativist; anyone with a sense of history understands how irrational your comment is. I couldnt resist not calling it out for what it is.

Fred

Tyler,

Here's a different way of getting that message across:
https://www.facebook.com/ProudToBeAnInfidel/videos/748322451945248/

Bandolero

Patrick

I agree.

I can even give him the exact coordinates where the main sponsor of Jihadi terror in France has his residence. It's 48°52'13"N 2°18'59"E, the address is 55, Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré 75008 Paris, France.

President Hollande should immidiately order tough airstrikes on that terrorist sponsoring location to annihilate the source of terror in France. I'm usually anti-militarist, but in these exceptional circumstances I would make an exception.

Why? b has it:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/terror-attacks-in-france-some-related-links.html

The Twisted Genius

Tyler,

The only number I've see is 10k Syrian refugees, less than the Hmong. As long as those 10k Syrians are processed like my grandparents were at Ellis Island, I'd be okay with it.

john

Declaring war is easy. Killing them all is not. Especially since they come from so many different areas - including anglo and western recruits - and can easily slip into the local society without recognition.

I am reminded of trying to kill all the VC. It was like whack-a-mole, and something we never did effectively.

The Twisted Genius

Fred,

I like the way you think.

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