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29 September 2015

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Ulenspiegel

Fred,

while some of the aspects of the immigration are indeed debatable, it is from a European POV complete nonsense to assume that a few million immigrants will destroy Europe or one of its members.

I have seen very similar situation in 1990 with huge numbers of former citizens of the SU, Poland. There was be bitching about these immigrants for a few years, in some cities we saw severe problems, one generation later most of these immigrants are perfect citizens.

I do not expect the same good result of the Russian and Polish immigrants in case of Syrian immigrants, but do not see a reason why they should not perform at least as good as the Turks.

jonst

Off topic, sort of Col, so pardon me, and pardon me Fellow Committee Members..but I note the Col's list of readers is growing. Good! I sent a few here myself...but we have developed, unplanned, a vocabulary of our own, Borg, Unicorn, R2Pers, ok,we did not coin that phrase, but we have our own version of what we me... They are freely used here and committee members have a more or less good idea what is meant when we throw them around. Perhaps we could come up with a short 'dictionary' of the words and phrases that commonly come up here. I could try and come up with it myself. I would be glad to do the work. But it is much too nuanced for one person to decide things. And we can't and should not, ask the Col to do it. Maybe some weekend we could, via an open thread discuss what we mean by certain terms. We might come to some rough consensus, but in any event, sophisticated new comers would get the general idea what we mean...just a thought, inspired by a friend of mine who kept asking me, 'what does this mean, what does that mean'? Ok, they COULD google some of the phrases. But i like to think the Committee has its own good ideas on the use of/meaning of these terms.

Babak Makkinejad

You wrote:

"...but do not see a reason why they should not perform at least as good as the Turks..".

I do.

Per the Makkinejad Thesis, they mostly come from outside of the Seljuk Line; reason enough.

Babak Makkinejad

You have a point and I admit that we have to wait and see.

Babak Makkinejad

I expect people to move within Europe to localities that they find more congenial, for various reasons.

Sort of like how California in US became the magnet of Far Easterners and Middle Easterners (among others).

Probably parts of Berlin will become totally Arab.

confusedponderer

Ulenspiegel,
Re: "Kurds and Turks are able to peacefully co-exist in Austria and Germany."

I wasn't entirely ironic. I have had the opportunity to observe Kurds and Truks work together from aclose and I disagree with your assessment. They do get along, even more so with pressure to conform, but there is a lot of subtext in Turkish, which is usually lost on the Germans and Austrians because no one involved has an interest in translating.

I have observed one particular case that in which a girl qith a with a necklace of a wolf sitting in a halfmoon (i.e. of pan-turkish or ultra nationalist persuasion) told the Kurds at work to know their place (they were all of same function and rank in the workplace).

Striking to me was that the Turkish Alevites (wearing two-tongued sabres as necklaces) in the place concurred.

So don't kid yourself. There is calm, but the underlying sentiments and resentment are still there as an undercurrent. These folks do bring their grievances and strife to Germany.

charly

Most Turkish immigrants were country hicks who could barely read and planned to go back so saying that you expect Syrians to do better is not exactly a vote of confidence.


PS. Was there a massive influx from SU/Poland in Germany in the 90's

charly

Even if those "4 million" all came to Sweden than they would still be a minority

charly

Belarus also. Some rumors also say some other BRICS countries also

Hank Foresman

I am glad you are rational; I wonder why the rest of the in side the beltway crowd, particularly those in or around 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, are not as clear thinking. This is not intended to be cynical; rather a compliment. I am so fed up with ineptitude.

turcopolier

Hank Foresman

I talked to Alan tonight. He said that when he was dean they commissioned a study of the stress put on cadets and the brainiacs said that any of the three stresses put on rats was enough to break most college students. i.e., academics, PT and the rat line harassment. But, we were built to endure according to the standards of our long dead brothers. Just after the VN War, I met one of our alums who had been a POW in NVN for six years. When alone I asked him how bad it was . His response - "We were trained for it." pl

Fred

Patrick,

So this is to 'clear and hold' the area then expand outward? Sure seems to make sense. I expect this has had some serious planning for a long time within the RF military.

Fred

Babak,

This "free flow" of human beings is being done in weeks not over the 5 decades since the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. California is a magnet for Hispanics, not Middle Easterners. Asian immigration began almost at the same time as California became a state. An immigrant from Mexico is going to be a much closer cultural fit to our society than an immigrant from the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California

Fred

Ulenspiegel,

I am hopeful for you but immigrants from the Poland or Soviet Union were Europeans in culture already. This group of people are not Europeans which is going to create much bigger problem entirely.

Fred

jonst,

A good suggestion. I'll try my hand at a few.

Ulenspiegel

Confusedponderer,

I used deliberately "Friedliche Koexistenz", which has in the German context a certain meaning, to describe the interactions of Turks and Kurds in Germany. :-)

It is far from perfect, I have lived in Frankfurt for years and my current home town Graz has a similar situation. In addition, my father, who was police officer, sometime had to work cases that were the result of this situation. However, we have now a very low level of violence and my bet is that with mor girls in higher schools the situation will improve further.

A more "funny" episode from my family: Around 1970-75, my mother helped some "Turkish" families with their official correnspondence with German authorities and schools. One day she decided to invite two of the families for Kaffee und Kuchen (coffee and cake), when talking to family A about her intention to invite family B at the same time, the atmosphere became suddenly frosty (it was interesting experience for me as 10 year old kid to observe this). When asked by my mother what the issue was, Mr. and Mrs. A explained that family B are not Turks and that family A prefered not to sit in the same room with Kurds. Result: We had two times Kaffee und Kuchen.

Ulenspiegel

The from a German POV problematic integration of Turks, who are at least one generation behind others like Indians, Chinese, Russians, define for me the worst case. However, we could handle it, therefore I see the Syrians a little bit more relaxed.

Again, I do not sell the current development as good, personally I would prefer more immigrants from Russia or Ukraine, but there is absolutely no reason for panic.

Ulenspiegel

"Per the Makkinejad Thesis, they mostly come from outside of the Seljuk Line; reason enough."

As scientist I prefer, if possible, to make observations first, then develope a for the problem appropriate model. :-)

The Turks I know were the children and grandchildren of peasants mostly from Anatolia, they still struggle with school in the third generation.

In contrast, last Thursday I used the ICE 90 between Wien and Hannover, the train should have been dubbed "Great Syria" :-), most passengers were Syrian refugees, one saw the whole spectrum from peasants to highly educated families, where the kids spoke three languages and could only be described as secular Muslims. Add the fact that the Syrians come from different religious groups I do not see a reason why they should be more problematic than the Turks.

Turks, almost 5 million live in Germany, have no political power and are overall not very religous, they integrate too slowly (for my taste) but are no danger for our society, why do you expect this from the Syrians?

Babak Makkinejad

Scientific progress is due to insight - in this case the Makkinejad Thesis - and not by pedantic accumulation of disparate facts.

Particle Physics has zoo of particles and a plethora of facts but cannot explain why, for example, the muon exits.

I explained myself at length; in the Persian Gulf there are Arabs who speak at least two languages but they are not "Modern" in any sense of the word that you can understand.

I will stand by the Makkinejad Thesis and let - like empirical sciences - wait for future to confirm or negate it.

You have 5 million Turks in Germany, precisely, you cannot assimilate them and they are form within the old Seljuk boundary. The qualitative difference is analogous to the difference between Bulgarians and Germans.

Germany, and indeed Europe, could never, during historical times from the demise of Rome, deal with ethno-religious minorities. We shall see if things will be different this time.

Unfortunately, I will not be alive to see the outcome.

LeaNder

Ulenspiegel, I reflected on the Turks versus Kurds for a while, admittedly.

A multitude of questions run through my head at this time, often in an effort to retrieve historical data. But yes, it seems more calm in that context recently.

I did stumble into a huge demonstration, from I assume a huge crowd of citizen with a Turkish/Kurdish citizen on my way to my favorite Turkish supermarket at one time. And I did understand their concern.

Since I come from the arts, and I guess was a-political most of my life, often art raised awareness for issues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yol

leaNder

"you cannot assimilate them and they are form within the old Seljuk boundary."

Babak, maybe you should define this boundary, for all of us nitwits out there, both geologically and "meme"itacally, if I may form this ad hoc neologism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

*****
Could you translate this to cultural memory traces in connection to your Seljuk thesis?

http://tinyurl.com/Ma-awiya-vs-Imam-Ali

Fred

Charly,

yes, adding 4,000,000 immigrants to Sweden's current population of 9,000,000 will make them a mathematical minority. It will change the political power of the current 9,000,000. Just look at the wonderful societies those 4,000,000 built back home. Just think what value they bring to the society you (Swedes) live in. I'm sure current citizens of Sweden will be happy with the new change since it makes non Swedes not having to deal with this influx of Earth's finest humans fell better.

Babak Makkinejad

On your number one, I already have done so numerous times.

The Makkinejad Thesis on Seljuk Transcendence is not a meme, it is a very deep insight into Muslim Civilization and the Historical Process.

Lesser men than I had made a name for themselves with shallower insights.

On your number two:

http://www.alim.org/library/biography/khalifa/content/KAL/57/4

And

http://www.amazon.de/Von-Ali-Zahra-Annemarie-Schimmel/dp/3424009695/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1443715703&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=anne+marie+schimmel+ali

und

http://www.amazon.de/Ali-Siegel-H%C3%BCter-g%C3%B6ttlichen-Botschaft/dp/1506197914/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1443715873&sr=8-1&keywords=Imam+ali

und

http://www.amazon.de/Nahjul-Balagha-Vol-1-Imam-Ali-Talib/dp/1507540329/ref=sr_1_1?s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1443715963&sr=1-1&keywords=nahjul+balagha

William Fitzgerald

Having just watched Sergei Lavrov;s press conference at the U.N., I Came away even more impressed with his knowledge, demeanor and aplomb. Most important was Russia's support of Patrick Lang's policy of, "Fight the Jihadis, All the Jihadis!", and, by all means, coordinate with Syria.

WPFIII

Babak Makkinejad

Ah: I see now your question.

The Love & Respect for the Household of the Prophet was shared by both Ottomans and Safavids - it predated both of them and can be traced back to the Seljuk era.

Until very recently, in Hagia Sofia, there was a large plaque with the name "Fatima" on it. It is removed now; I suppose Muslim Brotherhood had something to do with it.

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