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31 August 2015

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Tyler

Borders are what determines if you've got a country.

Good luck in your struggle over there. My advice? Deal harshly with the Fifth Columnists in your midst, ignore their emotional rhetoric, and never let the illegals get a foot hold.

turcopolier

tyler

Budapest is not El Paso. If the Germans want them let them have them. pl

Ursa Maior

Good point. Question is are we still a country or already a satellite, but this time Brussel's not Moscow's. Check the news about Hungary regularly and you will now. It is still undecided.

As of fifth column, we already had them, but we are slowly but steadily getting rid of them.

Babak Makkinejad

The EU3 treat all other members as vassals.

When a vassal starts grumbling, like Hungary, they start snarling.

On the other hand, you cannot hope to help people from the consequence of their own actions; when so many were groveling to be admitted into EU as vassals.

walrus

I am once again amazed at the reach of SST and the breadth of members experiences. Thank you Doctor Somkuti for your observations.

Dismayed

I have seen no evidence to support the notion, but maybe there are factions in the German government that are 'encouraging' the Hungarians to not send them on?

turcopolier

Dismayed

What I said here and earlier is that the German government has expressed a willingness to take 800,000 refugees from this wave of immigrants. What "notion?" pl

JLCG

These migrants are a positive for Europe particularly for Germany. They are fully grown, so Germany has not had to feed them and educate them, whatever level of education they may have reached. They represent an enormous injection of capital into Germany. They are young and I suppose ready to work. This addition will free some of the pent up wage demands in Germany. Besides being young soon they will procreate and rescue Germany from the demographic crisis that otherwise is about to engulf it.. It will take some generations to make them into proper Pomeranians but perhaps some Mediterranean and Levantine levity may have a beneficial effect.
What is to fear?

jerseycityjoan

I just saw this over at the UK's Telegraph website. This would change a lot, obviously:

"EU may bring back border controls, Angela Merkel suggests

The German Chancellor said for the first time that the Schengen zone, which allows passport-free travel across mainland Europe, cannot continue in its current form unless other EU countries accept their share of migrants.

...

"If we don't arrive at a fair distribution then the issue of Schengen will arise - we do not want that,” Mrs Merkel added.

“We stand before a huge national challenge. It will be a central challenge not only for days or months but for a long period of time.”

Her comments came as Austria imposed tough new controls along its eastern border with Hungary on Monday.

Queues of cars stretched back 18 miles into Hungary as Austrian police checked every vehicle on the Budapest-Vienna motorway in an attempt to crack down on traffickers smuggling asylum-seekers into the EU."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11835554/EU-may-bring-back-border-controls-Angela-Merkel-suggests.html


Patrick Bahzad

I can't but totally disagree with many points raised in this piece.

Despite a title focusing on the migrants' situation, not much of the content is actually devoted to explaining causes, consequences and potential implications.

Most of what I read is about finger pointing at others: the EU, the neighboring countries and the media picking on pour little Hungary. This is not helpful and not explaining anything about what is going on and why.

The current crisis is a consequence of events in the MENA that have been encouraged or supported by the West in general, and European countries in particular. Any EU-member State holds partial responsibility, Hungary included. Finger pointing at Brussels as a scapegoat for national politicians' shortcomings is an easy excuse.

What should have been explained, is that the EU's migration policy had been based on sub-contracting the management of the migrants' arrivals to Southern mediterrenean countries: Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey.

These countries either are not existing as functioning States anymore (Syria, Libya), have enough on their plate to deal with (Tunisia, Morocco, Lebanon) or don't want to serve as final destination of the migrants anymore.

This is why that first "anti-migrants" barrier doesn't exist anymore. What used to be handled hundreds of miles away from European shores is now happening on European territory. Add to this the existence of organised crime that is exploiting this human misery and extorting thousands of dollars from migrants to get them into the EU and you get the picture.

That is the kind of description I would have liked to read about. Except for some hard to understand internal EU migration law, there is nothing at all about these issues. Neither is there anything written about the consequences in the host countries of massive arrivals by migrants with a very different cultural background.

Furthermore, I would like to emphasize the following points:
1. Stating Hungary is a colony 'light' (whose colony ?) and that local laws are being disrespected is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. When Hungary joined the EU, you should have known that EU law supersedes national law in certain areas. If you didn't, there's only Hungarian politicians to blame for that.
2. grievances and complaints, legitimate as they are, are not a Hungarian prerogative. Nobody forced Hungary to join, if Hungarians didn't like it, they should have stayed out, or opted out of certain programmes. Regarding complaints, get in line and wait for your turn, Hungarians are not the only people to have cause for dissatisfaction with the EU.
3. Hungary complains today about lack of help regarding the migrants' situation. But where was Hungary when Greece and Italy called for help, when they were confronted with an incoming flow of migrants through the Mediterranean ? Is Hungary poorer than Greece ? Should it be helped more than countries it refused to provide assistance with ?
4. the alleged and tacit understanding with German "CSU" has very limited value. At best, it is a reminder of an understanding Germans and Hungarians had in a not so distant and not so glorious past. I wouldn't be proud of it. The reference to Hungarian minorities living outside the national borders has a similar baseline, and one should exercise caution when conjuring up images which belong into a past that should be dead and buried for good !
5. finally, the very casual and derogatory description regarding situations of 'gypsy' and Jewish minorities bears hallmark of a certain colour-blindness regarding Hungarian politics. The way Hungarian 'gypsies" are being treated is their own country is an absolute disgrace. As for Jews, I'm certainly no Zionist, but I recall the party in power in Hungary wanted to establish a 'Jews' register not so long ago and hard-core antisemitic hate propaganda has reached peaks in Hungary that are probably known only in countries such as the Baltic States in present day Europe.

William R. Cumming

There are estimates of up to 25M residents of the EU and UK with American passports. Is this correct?

Patrick Bahzad

I think the situation is a bit more complicated than you say. And of course, Germany has to feed them, educate them and teach them both language skills and cultural skills needed to blend into the host country. This is a tough challenge. As for injection of capital, these people have no money, so what capital are they injecting ?
The main long term upside is indeed the demographic rescue effect, but there are so many obstacles on the way to getting there, I wouldn't be very optimistic for now.

Patrick Bahzad

I'm sorry but what are you getting rid of ?

As for being brussels satellite, let me enlighten you about the difference with Moscow: if you leave if the EU, some people will say good riddance and nothing else will happen. When you tried getting away from Warsaw Pact you had Russian tanks on your streets.

Ishmael Zechariah

Ursa Major and B. Somkuti,
Since both of you used the word "Turkish devastation", I did a simple web search and found a link: http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm
which delivers your common narrative:

"The Land Devastated

If you travel in Hungary, and go south or east from Budapest, you will soon find yourself in the flat country of the Great Plain (Alföld), a fairly well-cultivated land often uninhabited for dozens of kilometers, except for a few scattered farmsteads. Before the Turkish occupation, this whole area resembled the low countries of Western Europe, its fertile lands thickly studded with the small villages typical of medieval times-villages surrounded by forests, ponds, small patches of almost garden-like fields, with the white Roman or Gothic spires of churches peeping out of their refreshingly green surroundings.

The Turkish occupation changed everything. The forests were cut down or burned. The ponds became unhealthy swamps. The rivers spread unrestrained over the Plain and roads were slowly covered by thick brush. The peaceful little villages disappeared and the Plain became a scene of desolation."

Reading the above, one would think these events happened a few decades ago. If you wish to see what real and recent devastation is like, do look up the pictures of Hiroshima: http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/08/06/never-forget-the-bombing-of-hiroshima-64-years-ago-today/
Nagasaki: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/nagasaki-one-day-after-the-atomic-bombing-seen-in-newlydiscovered-pictures-9472178.html
Dresden: http://freewestradio.com/2013/09/dresden-bait-switch/
Stalingrad: http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-EF-Defeat/img/USA-EF-Defeat-p47.jpg
Please look up the pictures of the same areas today, about 70 years later. Can you see a difference?

Could you explain to me what prevented you Hungarians from reconstructing these lands in your image after we (the Turks) left over 300 years-three centuries-ago?

Both of you blame everybody but yourselves. A common and regrettable sign of the times.

Ishmael Zechariah


Patrick Bahzad

Ishmael Zechariah,

I'll second what you wrote in your post !

There is a certain irony to Hungarians complaining about Turkish devastation when they themselves have been a people that raided and devastated lots of Western and Catholic Europe before they were vanquished by German Emperor Otto I in 955 at the battle of Lechfeld !

As far as I know, "Attila" is still a Hungarian name, it's never been a Turkish one ...

Balint Somkuti

We are getting rid of the fifth column.

And ye I know how it feels when russians tanks are rolling on our streets. The 1956 uprising was just all about that.

I know that Brussels does not absolutely equal Moscow, but it is also a one way street. The current fuzz about Hungary shows just that. Yes the tools are finer, but as an extreme right wing politician put it bluntly 'tanks went out, banks came in".

Ulenspiegel

"What I said here and earlier is that the German government has expressed a willingness to take 800,000 refugees from this wave of immigrants."

That is wrong. The German government expects 800.000 immigrants in 2015, many of them are "asylum seekers" from save countries and are sent back.

According to offical data, Germany has 200.000 applications for asylum in the first half of 2015, of these around 75.000 are from former Yogoslavia and are very likely sent back.

Balint Somkuti

Mr. Bahzad,

1. If you like the world protectorate better than be it. Coca colonization does not only occur in third world countries. US companies have also been busy acting like Union Fruit here in the East (e.g. Bunge) yet this time we are speaking about EU countries. I am not talking about EU laws superiority I am talking about German, French, and Austrian firms or entrepeneurs intentionally breaking, disobeying or circumventing hungarian laws by the dozen. When caught acting completely illegaly (say transporting hazardous materials without permission, or breaking anti monopoly rules) they run squeaking to their embassy, that they are punished for no reason. Activities which were every-day occurance here by famous and respected EU companies’ represenatatives’ would have been immedaiately repercussioned back in their home country. They say they want EU all over the place. OK but act as a european not as a colonial officer. As of hungarian politicians, what they have committed, especially the already non-existing neoliberal SZDSZ, and the shrinking communist turned socialdemocrat turned neoliberal MSZP, can be rightfully called treason. They have sold out state companies to themselves or anybody who had a good offer to them. How this could have had happened would require another analysis. General William Odom is widely quoted saying: „The socialists have guilt, and therfore serve us well. This is an advantage only a fool would miss out. The hungarian ex-communists do what we ask, like they did to they soviet masters. And are surprised thta we are easier to make business with.”

2. Well many of us think we were tricked. EU is or should be about the four freedoms. (freedom of ware flow, capital flow, services, and persons). There were no hints about an oppressive neoliberal regime in Brussels. Yes oppressive. When the new govt made an anti abortion campaign from EU money it was forced to repay it. Why? Who says an abortion is healthy or desirable? No Sir, are what we were. The rebellious hungarians. As of now only extreme right Jobbik supports an exit from the EU. But as Brussels interferes more and more with our every day life, something the soviets have intentionally and carefully avoided, this idea gets more support. Buta las there is no scenariof of an exit. Why? If I enter I can quit, can I?
3. Mr. Bahzad we are the third poorest country in the EU, right behind Romania and Bulgaria. Unlike the italians we had no colonies and Greece was not hit by immigrant waves until recently.
4. With this „limited” support Mr. Orban have avoided a blockade, what Mr. Haider had to endure as Bundeskanzler in Österreich. How had Mr. Haider and his Freedom Party got to power? Lemme think. Ah yes another marvel of brainless migrant support. Dont get me wrong. People fleeing from clear and present danger must be offered asylum. For a limited period of time and well defined rules. I am sorry but Afghanistan, Sudan etc. suffer their own woes. Of course the same is not true in the case of Syria and Iraq. Well if you think that being true to an alliance (good or bad) is a shame, that is your problem. We have been a trustworthy ally for centuries, and have been punished for it. But dont go back that far. The special connection to Germany, especially southern (Bavaria) was reinforced when we let he east germans out.

I am really surprised that you differentiate between people’s sufferings yet blame me with racism. Why do the oppressed hungarians worth less than those of the migrants’? As the irish we also dont forget our kin in need. If you do so that is your decision.
5. Mr Bahzad. Please forgive me if you feel like I was derogatory. I just dont do politically correct speech. Another privilege of a savage living on the fringe of civilization.

Like stated many times my country has a long tradition of ethnically mixed population. We have or had a huge german minority called swabs. Gypsies have lived with us for centuries creating smaller or bigger problems with their nomadic lifestyle along the way. Hungarian slovaks called ’tót’ in Békéscsaba make the best sausages. We have a striving jewish minority. If you look up my name on the net I was personally responsible for organizing a commemorative jump remembering Hanna Senesh, with official support. These continous claims of antisemitism are especially ridiculous and make international MSM a joke here. What are you talking about if a nationalist rock group has a song about a well known cartoonesque character of a hungarian jewish writer (Rejtő-Reich Jenő), and the song is Kárpátia – Piszkos Fred? If we are such antisemites, why do so many jews live here? Proportinally or total? Where is the jewish population from the new champion of human rights Rumania? Slovakia? Or the emerging power Poland? The nazis were only able to deport some 600 000 jews in 1944 becuase they fled here from other countries. Spare me the cheap propaganda would you?
Gypsies are called gypsies. We have a so called gypsy steak (cigányszelet) a well known and liked food in Hungary. I wont rename it for you or anybody else. But if we are here. In hungarian ’doing the néger’ (négerkedni) -NOT ’nigger’- means doing a hard work somebody else. And I wont change that too. It was not the hungarian gypsies who fled their countries by tens of thousands. Yes majority of them are poor, just as other citizens of the country.
It is an often cited charge and lie, but extreme right wing Jobbik is not in power. They are in the Parliament but not int he govt. And yes they wanted to have a foreign citizen registration in the Parliament. Was based on american FARA. Is it a bad thing?

If I may advise read less MSM.

There seems to be a lot of questions why we hold such centuries long grudges. They are not grudges. We dont have the slightest power to exert retaliation. It is called experience. When The christian Habsburgs have repelled the Turks from most Hungary in 1699 they acted almost just as badly as the muslim turks. Instead of treating locals as their kin, they treated us like another occupied country. Reaction 1703 uprising.

Don’t you think this situation is similar to what we are enduring today? Occupied by a foreign and violent culture, for decades then liberated in the name of freedom and tolerance. But this new rule as only slightly different to the previous.

No gentleman, don’t forget Santayana: „Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Poul

Or Hungary and other countries could just step out of the 1951 Refugee Convention and then step in again with limitations on who can be recognized as a refugee. They could do like Turkey and only recognized Europeans as refugees.

The USA also got fed up with European immigrants seeking a better life. And you didn't have the demographic problems which will worsen the effects of immigration and lets not start on the millions of jobs which robots and software will eliminate over the next decades. Unskilled European labour is already feeling the pressure of increased competition on the job market, soon to be joined by engineers, doctors etc.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Origins_Formula

Balint Somkuti

If you look around in the Great Plain (Alföld), it is regulated, cultivated, and produces the best dry white wines in the country since 200 years.But it was not like that. Recultivating the desert like territory destroyed by not an earthquake, a storm, a flood, a volcano or some other catastrophe, but a foreign occupier will be remembered, since it was a great undertaking, a well designed and executed one. If I break your precious glass from your great-great grandfather, you will remember it too. ;-)

Especially if it was the lucky chalice of the family and ever since you feel like the Kennedys befell with all sorts of tragedies.


But to ease your pain that maybe your people were not always the forebearers of progress, as shown in the TV show Suleiman (like the huns you know Attila), when I teach history I always add that the ottomans had a really tolerant style of islam. There is a story of a bey participating in a protestant church service in the 17th century. When the preacher read from the Holy Bible in hungarian and spoke about Babylon, and other Middle-Eastern places, he stood up and ordered the service to stop, since those places were under the rule of the Padisah, not the protestant church. Can you imagine it happening today?

And if you are really imterested what do we think about your people here is another story.

Devsirme was not taken from occupied hungarian territories, since it was found that the young hungarians did not comply and obey, so no yen ceri were recruited from here. We are proud of it ever since.

Poul

Sweden is similar to Germany and have taken more than their share of refugees and various right- & left-wing think-tanks agree that immigration is a net cost to Swedish society. And not petty cash.

There is a reason the social-conservative party the Sweden-Democrats could well be the biggest Swedish party after new elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats

Kutte

Patrick Bahzad,

a very quick search of the internet brought the following:
Attila (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_(name)

Attila is a popular masculine name in both Hungary and Turkey.

JLCG

They inject the only real capital , the human mind.
The mind that invents, unveils values, fashions the future.
All other "capital" is dead matter.

confusedponderer

Re: Hungary is a colony 'light'

Your better coloniser EXTRACT wealth from their colonies. The EU instead GIVES money to Hungary. If Hungary is suppoosed to be a colony, then the EU is doing it wrong.

http://budapestbeacon.com/public-policy/hungary-to-receive-usd-4-8-billion-in-agricultural-subsidies-from-eu/23602

Clearly, proof of eurocratic incompetence.

confusedponderer

Not just Attila, one of my Romanian-Hungarian colleagues' first name is Arpad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe

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