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10 July 2015

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jonst

"correction" sir? Is that what we are calling "provocative, gratuitously provocative, ignorance and arrogance. People are playing with fire here. This will be highly divisive. And will lead to many, many, many, unforeseen consequences in my opinion. Sadly.

Tidewater

Tidewater to Duncan Kinder,

The borders simply have to be brought under control.

If there is to be immigration--control it!

The problem is that the black population is once again being pushed down below the Hispanic illegal 'come-from-aways.' Once again the black man is low man on the totem pole. (To use the imagery of apparently rising Seattle northwest.)

If need be--why not a national draft of young men and women for national service of at least a year? They would wear the uniform of the Border Army, a different uniform. They would be very high tech. Many would work off of computers and use drones. But it would be military, regardless.

They would be trained in fire fighting. They would use drones to locate fires and new, large, fire-fighting drones to control fires.

There would be constant training marches through contested areas of the southwestern frontier. Each unit would have someone deputized. There would be constant communication with a central Border Patrol clearing house. And a Border Patrol response unit. Helo teams and drones would monitor them. The Border Army unit would be armed and would have the power to detain. But they would also have medics. They would be trained to ensure the well-being of the illegals they detain and pass on to the authorities.

The Border Army march teams would have had the same intensive legal course work that other state agencies have, as, for example, game wardens.

One purpose of the Border Army would be to evaluate the education of the young citizenry and reeducate those found to have come from failed school districts. There are many such failed school districts all through the American South.

The Homeland Border Army would be used to reestablish an American identity.

In the event as seems likely the climate changes create famine and chaos in certain areas, the Border Army will be on hand to provide emergency help.

Let's face it. A lot depends on the weather. It's time to guard the sally- ports.

Sidney O. Smith III

Nancy K et al.
I graduated from a public high school in the deep South that was 50 per cent black at the time. I am glad.

Yes, the desegregation era was in some ways, deeply flawed. It would have helped if Baker v. Carr came about before Brown v. Brd.

But just being kids together day after day, empathy starts to develop. Friendships, however, awkward begin. Yes, there are fights and so on. But there is empathy too.

Nancy K. Please watch the following. It happened in Miami (most definitely not deep South) but it is the product of integration. The judge and the defendant went to school together and they remembered each other. I have experienced the same several times (not as a judge, just seeing people around).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5CMh8SMjOw

That is why, imo, so many in Charleston knew that the flag had to come down. Out of fondness and respect for your spiritual kin. That had to be established first and foremost.

Peggy Noonan of NYC deserves a lot of credit when she wrote about Charleston healing. That was the way to go. Noonan got there first.

http://blogs.wsj.com/peggynoonan/2015/06/19/a-bow-to-charleston/

She got to the essence light years before Jim Webb, which makes me think he did not have the deep South experience. But he is now in a position in which he must explain the complexity of that godawful war from the 19th century. He is a very smart guy, so it will be fascinating to watch.

I cannot overemphasize how much Obama has hurt this nation by rejecting the Charleston healing route and opting for the Chicago divisiveness route.

Look, nothing against Chicago. I have always wanted to live there for a year or so. But MLK left Chicago, imo, because he didn’t see the Christian values in race relations upon which his strategy relied. Those values were on full display during Charleston healing. (and they would and have worked outside the South as well).

But Charleston healing will evaporate because of politics.

I voted for Obama twice, for foreign policy reasons only. But if he had opted for Charleston healing instead of Chicago divisiveness, he could have well brought many people of the South (and much of the rest of the nation) back into at least considering the Demo Party. The voting was not that far off in the last prez election. Just a few people per hundred in deep South States.

Now we are looking at a pending disaster which will only increase the powers of the national surveillance state in the long run and rip this country apart, needlessly and tragically.


no one

Non-Germans, Believe it or not, I actually know how to read and have sufficient focus to follow a magazine article from start to finish. I have a subscription to the Atlantic. So I encounter Coates regularly. I selected the example linked to above specifically b/c it is allegedly a letter from Coates to his son. Otherwise, I recognize that his writing is both typical social justice "thinking" and is influential. The logical conclusion I draw is that nothing short of the complete prostration of "white culture" will do in terms of appeasement. That is why I think it is foolish to think that the adjustment will stop with the gesture of removing a few flags. Why I also think it is foolish to even make that gesture in the first place. Give an inch, they take a mile.

I always told my children that life can be tough and it certainly isn't fair. Choose something you want to do in life and choose something with heart. Nothing will be handed to you for free. It's all up to you. With honor, courage and commitment there will be a point when you can look back and realize that you're enjoying a measure of success and you can look yourself in the mirror and feel good about what you see. They both elected military careers.

cville reader

Yet most of the inflammatory rhetoric is coming from one side.

An objective person might reasonably ask to what degree this is being organized, or as community activists like to say, "catalyzed."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/14/george-soros-reinvests-in-progressive-cause-data-company/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/catalist-and-dspolitical-announce-new-partnership-bringing-cutting-edge-online-targeting-to-progressive-community-163540246.html

The Washington Times even compares Catalist, a data analytics company sponsored by a progressive foundation, to the Borg:

In an article at PJ Media, former Justice Department Voting Section lawyer J. Christian Adams compares the astoundingly comprehensive left-wing data machine to the cybernetic organism in “Star Trek: First Contact.”

In the 1996 film, the all-consuming Borg forces other species into its collective “hive” mind of knowledge.

“Every Borg unit can see what all the other units see,” Mr. Adams writes. “They share data and react in unison. Similarly, the data feeding the central Catalist database is coming from a wide swath of sources. Public records, pollsters, campaigns, nonprofits, activist groups, unions, parties, commercial data. For example, when an environmental group does neighborhood door-knocking for cash, the results of those contacts are fed into Catalist.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/19/knight-the-lefts-mighty-catalist


jonst

Glad you like him....we'll put you down as one of the potential contributors to the reparations fund he is demanding.

Jennifer. Green

As a long time lurker, I wanted to add that in 1883 after a law suit that went to the US Supreme Court the federal government paid to the oldest son of Robert E. Lee the sum of $150,000.00 for title to the Arlington estate. The Supreme Court decision said the tax sale of the estate was illegal and the estate should be returned to the Lee family. The Lee family decided to take compensation for the estate and in 1883 $150,000.00 was a substantial sum; in today's sum $3.7 million. Or so says Wikipedia.
As a person of different political views from the majority of respondents to the site, I hesitate to add anything because of the responses I anticipate; I will add that I do think the battle flag has no place on a state capital but to remove all traces of the Civil War is ridiculous. All the monuments etc are part of our history. I confess I was thrilled and touched when I saw the Confederate monument in the square at Ponotoc, MS; a gr gr gr grandfather signed up and fought in the 31 st MS infantry from 1861 to 1865. He was not a slave owner.

Tyler

Tidewater,

This is an interesting proposal. I wish it would be picked up.

Tyler

I think this article by Fred Reed sums it up nicely.

http://www.unz.com/freed/paybacks-a-bitch/

Digging up Forrest now. That's where "we must heal" gets you, SOSIII. The rest is just a lot of rhetoric.

Bobo

History cannot be changed, it may be re-written to one's liking but still it is not changed. The "Battle Flag"' is going into museums properly so as it is a Military Flag. Some may want to continue the "correction" but when it gets down to the states, counties or cities on who is going to fund these changes the " correction" will cease. Young Mr. Roof did not have a clue what his actions would start and that is the shame of this nation. Educating our youth is our responsibility which we have left it in the hands of our governmental branches and they have done a piss poor job. These Community Activists need to re-focus their efforts putting the education of our youth and meaningful work for the masses they represent. They also can get off their rear ends and start businesses that create jobs versus spouting the hate and demagoguery that some do. Oh, Reparations will never happen and is not worth the effort to discuss it.
I certainly would support flying the "Stars and Bars" or the "Blood Stained Banner" at appropriate events or days of celebration that are meaningful to individuals. Certainly it should fly over cemeteries for individuals who gave their lives in battle for the Confederacy.
Folks there is a lot problems we need to overcome in the future versus arguing over Spilled Milk.
Just a Yankee Liberals view now living in the South.

Stephanie

Fred82,

No, the average Johnny Reb would have owned no slaves but he was also a proud white man who would not have welcomed the idea of competing for land and work with free blacks and felt no more warmly towards them than the Northerners who lynched them during the Draft Riots. Secession fever was fed by a lot of crazy rumors going around about Lincoln and his intentions regarding slavery. Which is not to say that was the only reason such an individual might be fighting, but that kind of alarmism might well have been part of it.

Nancy K

Reeducation camps? The Border Army is going to evaluate who they think needs to be reeducated? Really, are they going to wear brown shirts also?
"The Homeland Border Army would be used to reestablish an American Identity." What identity is that the original Americans, the Native Americans? Your idea of this young border army has already been tried. It was called the Hitler Youth.

A. Pols

Colonel;
I don't really advocate one position over another, nor did I intend to suggest one outcome was preferable to another, only to postulate alternative scenarios. I am sorry if I offended you, not my intention.
My personal thoughts are more aligned with the idea that the southern states should have been allowed to chart their own course...

kao_hsien_chih

There is something that runs parallel between this and the whitewashing of history also currently ongoing in places like Ukraine (and to a lesser extent, India, China, South Korea, and Japan.) Inconvenient past is thrown out and replaced by the version that suits the modern day fancy. Of course, this is hardly new and something that many have warned about: Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia and Nikolai Yezhov never existed, right?

Make no mistake: attempt at creating a "new" official history and abolishing the politically incorrect past is the first act of tyranny. It's equivalent of book burning. If it was wrong for Qin Shihuang, Hitler, or Stalin, surely it must be wrong for Comrade Barak or Comrade Strom, too. (I include the latter b/c, in some sense, the prevalence of the Confederate symbolism among certain circles today is itself the product of politically correct whitewashing of history, by others with, eh, different political agenda in fairly recent past. So, supposedly for fighting ignorance to further villainy, the wise souls of today want to inflict even more ignorance. Such leaders we have.)

Tidewater

Tidewater to All,

I have not talked to any South Carolinians recently about such a novel thing as "Adjustment." This is a whole new idea to me!

Frankly, I would be surprised if there is such a movement in South Carolina that is widespread and genuine; meaning a movement of white and black people on the march. I have never heard of this.

I think that Dyllan Roof's crimes caught the entire state of South Carolina completely off guard. The leadership was blind-sided. This would include the out of state corporations like Boeing or BMW. They have stayed out of politics.

Galvanized, the community reacted. It was good to see the super progressive Mayor Riley of Charleston at the State House ceremonies. It was voted on; it's done. I think it is the right decision.

But as to "Adjustment." I think that was pretty much it.

I had no idea that the Confederate flag, the flag that for years I was quite accustomed to seeing as third flag down on top of the State House, had only gone up in 1961! I thought it would have been there since the beginning of the twentieth century. I always had this feeling it represented something that was historical fact,and ought to be remembered. It seemed far away when it was up on the State Capitol.

Now I find out that the reason it was up there at all was a political move by white politicians against integration! It was a sixties thing. The black politicians lost that round; they won this one. I am not sure that it will go much further.

I remember the expression on my parents' faces seeing it when they once visited me on their way to Florida. As was their habit, they said very little, but I could see they thought it was too much.

My guess about any further "Adjustment" in South Carolina is that there will be questions raised about state tax dollars used to benefit any ongoing Confederate "advocacy."

Therefore, I would think there will be a legislative debate about Confederate Memorial Day. It will be argued that tax dollars should not be spent on this. So perhaps "Adjustment" means the end of state supported Confederate Memorial Day? (Which is a state holiday.) However, I think there will be a fight. And if somehow the vote goes against Confederate Memorial Day then the day will continue under private auspices with permits.

I should think that next year the memorial day will be well attended.

After all, Columbia is a small city, but ten thousand veterans show up routinely at Fort Jackson on national Memorial Day.

One thing needs to be said about the Midlands and the Upcountry of South Carolina. To the best of my knowledge it is still legal to carry a pistol in South Carolina under state law without any permit. The law requires only that the weapon be kept out of sight. This is the exact reverse of Virginia law. I had a friend who did a stint as a bartender in a hotel bar that was out on the edge of Columbia. It catered to young men who came in from the counties round about the city. He grinned one night as he told me he had checked in five pistols at work. He simply tagged them and laid them out on a lower counter beneath the bar, or in a drawer. He gave them back at closing time. It had been an unexpected responsibility.

There is another thing that indicates the potentially volatile character of the upcountry rural male population. It has to do with the relationship between men and women. South Carolina has perhaps always been the state with the largest number of women killed by men--usually by the 'men in their life'--in the United States. Technically, Alaska is now number one, and South Carolina number two, but the number of women murdered by men continues to be highest in South Carolina.

There is another thing. My view is that southern males in the back country are easily manipulated, particularly by their women. If a woman in a bar says that another man there has bothered her, her guy has to do something. He is honor bound. This means a lot of trouble in upstate that was completely unnecessary comes from women's moods.

I once witnessed the following. There was a new bar on the edge of town. A buddy had moved out to the North East sector in a brand new development in an area that was kind of lacking in some amenities, at least at first. For a long time there were even no black people, which I suppose was the idea behind the place. Then the black power structure of the city gave stipends to the worst of the black welfare lot downtown. (Near me.) Soon my buddy had to look at a lot of blacks who seemed to be standing around doing nothing much out in the new burb carved out of the sand hills and piney woods. Though there was one thing he noticed they were defintely doing. They,too, were noticing. He now perceived the familiar menacing blot on the landscape was following him wherever he went. Soon came the burglaries.

My buddy was studying me closely as he filled me in one new events over a very good bottle of wine in his new TV cave, and I showed the proper sympathy and understanding except for one badly suppressed spasm of laughter in another room.

So finally in a new strip mall bulldozed out of red clay there appeared a nice new bar. In it was a very pretty country girl who worked as bartender in the afternoon. Place had serious blinds and heavy air conditioning and comfortable standard modern American furnishings, but you could barely see in there it was so dim. Very nice on a hot late summer afternoon, even when the western sun lay heavily on the plate glass windows. You could see the sun out there around the edges of the linoleum blinds and you were completely blinded for a moment if you left before sunset. It was very cool and very quiet inside.

There were usually only a few customers at the time we got there. Everyone liked the bartender and talked to her. She was very friendly and polite, Carolina style, which means there was an underlyiing formality. After a while I noticed a young cracker in the background who seemed to be paying close attention to all her interactions at the bar. These apparently were his hours off work. Eventually I went into the men's room and found him in there talking to my buddy. I listened. Gents aren't supposed to have conversations in the men's room.

He then said something to me. It went like this, in an intriguing, very quaint and archaic language that sounded like it might hark back to Elizabethan times. Staring at you very fixedly yet with a curious humility: "She is very dear to me." Surely I would understand this if I had an ounce of common male decency. She was his. So I understood that it would from now on be expected that I should not talk to her at all. He would be watching.

I have no idea how long this imbecility went on during her employment or how long her employment could possibly have lasted.

I think I said something to him to the effect that she did her job well and talking to customers was part of her job and I hoped that he could support her if she lost her job...

I never heard how it ended. I was off on a routine work trip and was soon gone. But I definitely felt that a gun was behind everything he was saying.

It ought to be remembered that there was a (white) Red Shirt movement in South Carolina as well as a (black) Hunky Dory club from Charleston during Reconstruction. There were confrontations. Blacks lost these confrontations with some very serious minded Confederate veterans then and they will lose them now.

Blacks will always lose these confrontations. Black politicians know this. They remember the Orangeburg Massacre of not too long ago.

rjj

thanks, cville reader, for asking my coarsely worded question so nicely.

Fred

cvilld reader,

interesting tha Catalist is doing the same broad sweep data collection that progressives have been so up in arms about.

John Minnerath

What is this mob hysteria? A pathological white supremacist murders a group of people in a black church in South Carolina and it morphs into a movement to purge the country of seemingly any references to the existence of the Confederacy.
Flags banned, demands for changes of names, School mascots with the slightest hint of Southern history outlawed.
Herds of talking heads babble on about reasons, it's pure BS insanity.

rjj

to alinsky as in "we're being alinskied" .... nice verb!!!

Fred

A. Pols,
"... remedy deficiencies in the Constitution " Right. I think I'll have to agree with Tyler here and work on those shot groupings.

steve

Never heard of Catalist. I suspect that shows how much influence they have.

As to the rhetoric coming from only one side, I suspect that depends upon what and who you read.

Steve

steve

I predict this will go no farther. Only a small percentage of people are interested in doing any of this stuff. It makes for a lot of good faux outrage on both sides as the election nears.

Steve

TomPM

I think Coates may see his letter as an updating of James Balwin's 1962 "Letter to My Nephew". http://www.progressive.org/news/2014/12/5047/letter-my-nephew

Mark Logan

Sidney,

I'm no great fan of Obama but in this one I perceived him to have taken the "Charleston" route, as I have seen no reports of him joining with the people who letting a misplaced sense of triumphalism get the better of them. They remind me of two lap dogs that encountered a cougar in a tree and thought they'd treed it. His statements at the church were not designed to inflame, they reflected the spirit of the victim's families as well as anyone could ask.

Jack

What is abundantly clear to me is that our current political ethos is not to solve any problem or get to the root of an issue but instead to game it in terms of PR advantage. The groupthink of the DC political-media corporatocracy and of southern political leadership is to create a certain view of our history and to denigrate the real history of the formation of the union by the colonial states. In addition the skepticism that informed the formation of a federal government and the conception of its limited role has been overcome by the inexorable march of big government intervening in ever increasing aspects of our lives. The very tyranny that our forefathers fought and feared is here right now.

Sir, as a fifth generation westerner I am curious about the thinking in the west during the WBS. Are there any recommendations of books that characterize the thinking and role of the people in the west during that period?

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