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05 July 2015

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LeaNder

Again, great you are back up there Sidney.

Waiting for the Greek decisions, which is a bit odd, considering that above 80% want to remain in the EU, and no one really realizes what Yes: OXI or NO: NAI, ultimately means.

Thus: I stumbled across a report on the Ukraine.

Since it is the federal flag is a topic here, I wondered about this flag somewhere in the background, looks pretty similar. But what the hell is its historical genesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Novorossiya

Looks, pretty similar on first sight doesn't it?

Wikipedia helps a little.

Sidney O. Smith III

LeaNder

Thank you. After I posted this I started speculating whether or not George Marshall in drafting the Marshall plan was effected by what happened in the South (US) after the war. He didn't want the same to happen in Western Europe, in other words.

Who knows...anyway, hope you enjoy the rest of today (early evening) in Germany. I plan to do the same here in the USA.

ISL

Thanks for your writing, SOS,

I recall visiting with a friend from an old family, cemeteries in North Georgia and we video-d the neatly aligned small plots next to those of mom and dad through well into the 60s (searching for the final resting place of a branch of the family tree).

Perhaps unsurprisingly there has been nada discussion on the existence of southern pride - one of those fist fights the north recalls through the haze of politically expedient memory, I suppose.

LeaNder

same, same, a friend from Korea used to say. ;)

I mixed OXI and NAI up. The list of course starts with NO, which is OXI and ends with NAI, yes. You may know more then we considering time zones. ...

Resolved some system (IT) issues, which is not bad.

Take care.

Sidney O. Smith III

Thank you, ISL. I am of the belief you can be about anywhere in the USA and find something beautiful.
North Georgia??????
Again, thanks.

Adam L Silverman

The Marshall Plan was designed to prevent a replay of what happened after WW I, where the Allies won the war and lost the peace because of the conditions that were set as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. At the point of time where Marshall was being educated on US history, the Dunning School's interpretation of the Civil War and Reconstruction was in the ascendant among historians and presented as the mainstream interpretation and understanding of that time period. The Dunning School based understanding of the Civil War and Reconstruction did not carry any useful lessons to be learned for post WW II reconstruction of Europe and Asia. The Dunning School, which was itself a revision of the history, has itself been revised by more recent historical analysis and historiography, though it tends to still be the predominant popular recounting of the time period. For an excellent handling of how America's understanding of the Great Rebellion changed over time, I highly recommend David Blight's "Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory" .

confusedponderer

Blight is the lecturer on the civil war in the Open Yale courses.

http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-119
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5DD220D6A1282057&feature=plcp

ex-PFC Chuck

Thank you, Sidney, for another thoughtful and nuanced post.

Whenever I read the meme "military industrial complex" I cringe because of its incomplete and therefore misleading nature, and for what might have been. It's been known for decades now that although early drafts of President Eisenhower's Farewell Address used the words "military industrial CONGRESSIONAL complex," the third word was edited out at the behest of the President's chickens**t political advisers. With three days left in his term what possible political damage could it have done to the outgoing administration to hold up a mirror so that the members of Congress would be forced to look at a reflection of their corrupt institution? This is another example of the sort of missed messaging opportunity that is the thrust of your post. Unfortunately,
memes are difficult to change once they become entrenched in the public mind, as both of these situations have demonstrated so far.

ex-PFC Chuck

For those who aren't familiar with it, President Eisenhower's Farewell Address is still worth reading today, 55 years after it was delivered.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

Sidney O. Smith III

ex-PFC Chuck
You are absolutely correct. I had read before the phrase "military industrial Congressional complex" but didn't know the history behind the final editing like you do.

You make a great point.

Hopefully people will take a closer look at what you wrote. Thanks.

William R. Cumming

Thanks SOS for this brilliant post!

HankP

Sidney -

Very interesting post, but to be fair, since no one
"owned" the flag I don't see how anyone could have prevented its use (or abuse) for anything. People might have complained, and that might have made a difference, but a legal restriction on the use of the flag would have been worse for our civil rights and likely wouldn't have changed anything. Sometimes culture is bigger and stronger than any well-meaning intervention.

BabelFish

The best trout fishing I've ever experienced was just north of Dahlonega. A gorgeous part of the world.

Sidney O. Smith III

Babelfish
Dahlonega? Next I will hear about hiking to the top of Yonah Mtn.

Glad you enjoyed the fishing. Lots of retirees now in that area and they seem to like it.

I know those parts but have moved on.

Dahlonega is a very attractive place these days, in part because of NG College. This time of year Dahlonega has a tradition of placing next to the streets Crosses with large US flags for all the people that attended NG (Military) college and died in War. They will have the name plus the war written on the Cross. Hundreds of US flags lining the streets. Makes for a patriotic sight.

Here I found a photo.

http://blog.osbornbarr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/079.jpg

I probably should grab a camera and go there for some pics.

Again, many thanks.

Fred

Sidney,

I will see if I can complete my thoughts tonight, but I must disagree with your selecting this particular quote of Shelby Foote's. I think you should have chosen Faulkner: "For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon..."

It is aspirational, this desire for liberty and personal responsibility. To be a man, just as your forefathers were.

Sidney O. Smith III

Hi Fred
Fascinating quote. Probably sounds better and, perhaps more meaningful, coming from you than me.

BTW,I am not very well read re: "the war" except what I have learned here. Not well read at all. Nonetheless, I keep thinking of Chickamauga after Longstreet broke through. Looks mighty "Cannae" like to me (for the CSA), strategically and tactically. Seems important that both Forrest and (I believe) Longstreet signed off on a written note critical of Bragg.

Heroes on all sides in that endless tragedy still echoing today. Check out the heroism of the Federals at Cheatham Hill at Kennesaw.

Thanks a lot for the insight! (I may be out of pocket for awhile).

Sid

Donald Johnson

I'm not one of the lefties who uses the word traitor to describe people like Lee because it strikes me as anachronistic. But the Confederacy was about slavery and the end of Reconstruction was about reimposing white domination and this happened because white Northerners didn't care. It didn't happen because white riffraff imposed it against the will of the elites, Northern or Southern. I enjoyed Foote's trilogy and can understand why people want to honor the valor of their ancestors, but they were fighting for a bad cause. I wish it had been chiefly about fighting a national security state and imperialism, but white Southerners wanted to defend slavery and expand its reach.

It would be nice to have some symbol with historical resonance that could represent anti-interventionist foreign policy, but the Confederate flag seems like a pretty unlikely candidate at any time.

Sidney O. Smith III

DJ
Did you read the essay? Hint: Sic Semper Tyrannis as a symbol. Anyway, read this:

http://tinyurl.com/ob85a7w

And good luck.

Fred

DJ,

You mean a symbol with historical resonance like the one that flew over the US for eighty years (before the civil war) while it was a unified federal republic where slavery was legal?

Sidney O. Smith III

Fred
You are very prescient. (I believe that is the right word.) I hope people highlight your comments because history may vindicate your comments. If not, they certainly make one think.

BTW, thanks for the Montmartre reference in the other thread. Moulin de la Galette. Maybe one day.

Even Babak may go for this:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/renoir/moulin-galette/renoir.moulin-galette.jpg

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