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24 June 2015

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confusedponderer

"particularly those of the John Hagee bent of mind are anti-Catholic, some virulently so"

Undoubtedly. I saw some of his sermons on the tube and I was impressed by the way he preaches, negativcely impressed by the substance of it and amazed by the way his message resonates with his audience. And then there are his books, and all the rest.

Not to make too much of it - IMO he is a primarily about worldly success and has found a business model that sells well so the details of his anti-Catholicism do not matter much to him. It's nothing personal, just business. Iirc his son has followed him into the family business.

That seems prudent economically. As of 2001, Hagee reportedly made $842,005 in compensation and $414,485 in benefits. Probably he makes a lot more today.

Tyler

RA,

I'm not arguing that they weren't taken by force, I'm mocking your juvenile historical revisionism as if that wasn't how the world worked back then and that evil white Americans were the only people doing that sort of thing.

If the Indians want their land back, I'm sure the Americans can take back all their roads and hospitals and schools. Even trade.

Have you ever worked on a reservation before? I mean in between the time you were a big shot reporter and meeting the secret police of the Shah of Iran, that is.

confusedponderer

Re: Hagee's business model - the sort of ware he peddles is leverage. From his 2000 book "God's Candidate for America":

"If you are concerned about the sort of America your children and grandchildren will grow up within, then you need to cast your vote for George W. Bush and the Republican Party."

Tyler

GCP,

The side that's "losing" generally doesn't have to desperately grasp as much as possible, openly trampling the laws of the land in a pathetic bid to try and secure some sort of utopia. But then again, liberals and reality aren't well acquainted.

I'm not sure which is going to get you first: a reactionary death squad or a bunch of urban youths from Houston dragging you out from under your bed. Maybe in the case of the latter you can blubber about how "I d-d-d-defended you on the internet" before your head gets caved in.

Croesus

I first encountered that quote while researching Patrick Clawson. His monograph, like Christine Helms's, was for National Defense University.

Clawson wrote on the morality of sanctions particularly if they impact Iraqi citizens. If I recall correctly, Clawson argued that it was morally appropriate to impose sanctions that harmed Iraqi citizens even if they did not have a democratic voice in their governance because they should have overthrown Saddam.

Helms offered expert testimony to several US House and Senate committees as Congress considered whether to invade Iraq in response to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. In five appearances on C Span between August 1990 and January 1991 Helms cautioned against US military intervention in Iraq and predicted the scenarios that we see today. In one such appearance, Helms observed that "Iraqi women were the most educated in the Middle East."

She also advised the Senate panel that "Popular Arab sentiment in the Middle East has changed [to the negative] because of the arrival in Iraq of a large American-led military force. The killings of the Palestinians on the Temple Mount in mid-October [1990] by Israeli soldiers and police deepened the virulence of this sentiment, with the Arab press querying "America's double standard," lack of parity or so-called linkage in the implementation of UN Resolutions." http://tinyurl.com/o7kdbor @ 13 min


Helms's five appearances on C Span are listed and linked here:

http://www.c-span.org/search/?searchtype=Videos&sort=Newest&personid[]=15126

Helms has not been back on C Span since Jan. 1991.

Patrick Clawson has appeared on C Span at least 20 times since Persian Gulf war I and is in the vanguard, with Dennis Ross, Michael Ledeen and others of the usual suspects, of the Israel lobby/neoconservative effort to sabotage an Iran nuclear deal.

I wonder if Christine Helms is available to speak to civic groups on US-Middle East relations, and if it's possible for her to "dumb down" such a presentation: recently, after a discussion of patterns in Persian rugs, one member of the group asked, "Is Iran the same as Persia?" Tragedy or farce?

Babak Makkinejad

"ignorance is often invincible" but Willful ignorance is truly Invincible.

LeaNder

Babak, I am aware that you look at history and as a result on the single representative of whatever sphere, region, country and state via the basic assumption that people are only shaped based on where they happen to be born, via a core concept that anchors millennia ago.

I am grateful to you and/or Farooq, since I realized a personal problem. It doesn't really surprise me, I am quite familiar with my inner forces that prevent me to judge. Including the occasional problems based on that flaw, by the way.

If you seriously are interested in "Lutheran doctors of Theology" and for that matter the whole microcosmic universe below them down to the single pastor or student of theology, you may want to look into the German Christians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians

and their adversaries the Confessing Church, who didn't manage to get completely "clean or white" out of the larger struggle against the takeover of their church either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church

You should also remember that while no such split existed in the Catholic space. The Catholics or their Center Party didn't get out either with completely clean hands:

http://tinyurl.com/Center-Party

Croesus

At one time I had a keen interest in Mother Angelica (Rita Rizzo), founder of Catholic media EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network), but I've not pursued the interest nor have I viewed EWTN in quite some time.

Angelica's choice to move from Rust Belt Ohio to Birmingham, Alabama remains a puzzlement. My speculation is that she followed her own family members from fading steel-towns in NE Ohio to Birmingham where and when steel was still vital.

Pat Robertson gave Angelica and EWTN its first big boost, and many of EWTN's regular participants are converts to Catholicism from evangelical denominations. Through these influences I speculated that EWTN introduced evangelicalism to the larger Catholic community. In turn, EWTN's evangelical relationships are intertwined with right-wing politics. While it's a good thing for baby-boomer Catholics to move away from the sentimental liberalism of their youth, that group now seems to me to be reactionary and also not well-informed on larger issues (i.e. the foreign policy issues that demand my attention. How dare they not share my passions!). IMO EWTN has not had a salutary effect on Catholicism in USA.


Croesus

Bedford, Pennsylvania is a tiny town just a few miles from Shanksville, PA, where one of the 9/11 planes went down (so we are told).

A building that fronts on Route 30 (Lincoln Highway), the major highway past the town flies the Stars and Stripes on one corner and the Star of David on the other corner. The flags fly at the same height and appear to be of the same dimensions.

At the opposite side of this building is the He Brews coffee house.

Croesus

I enjoyed living in Charlottesville and did not experience anti-Catholic sentiment, but then, I didn't experience any sense of being welcomed by Catholics, either.

The Thomas Jefferson Unitarian congregation is robust, but I established closest relationships with the small Iranian - Muslim community of which Professor "Ruhi" Ramizani and his wife, Nesta, are the nexus.

Croesus

I'm searching for a more proper word -- I am blown away by the erudition of your and LeaNder's comments about the Reformation, especially the mention of Dante, and of the Diocletian line.

Machiavelli is a guru to some neoconservatives because they think that he was a stern advocate of 'separation of church and state,' but they fail to understand that Niccolo seldom spent a day without reading Dante, whose work has been called the greatest Christian poetry ever written. Machiavelli -- and Jefferson -- were capable of distinguishing between the politics of an organization such as the Church and the underlying characterological (is that a word?) necessity of a religious/spiritual grounding.

Col. Lang should charge tuition.

William R. Cumming

Thanks P.L. and yes Jung not Freud!

LeaNder

Croesus, I noticed you before, but I forget what could my attention. Seems we share an interest. I'll avoid one of my very, very personal heartfelt screams in this context, at least I'll try. ;)

There isn't isn't only a struggle inside the Jewish community but also inside academia. Very, very long ago by now, I lost my, to use a term by Pat, Socratic exchange base in this context, and sadly many "spiritual friends".

If I may follow up on my own personal recent obsessions with Babak, I am trying to grasp why his Makkadinejad thesis or its specific corollaries remind me so much of enterprises like this:

http://tinyurl.com/ethno-psychology-Israel

Yesterday or the day before, I watched a public channel production, a movie. Purim surfaced in this context and looked a lot like Cologne, or German* for that matter, carnival. What do you think is more important to the average Israeli citizen. The remembrance of the Book of Esther or to escape the pattern of the necessary daily routines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim#Modern_scholarly_view

* Maybe I should add South America, since that was missing in Babak's fast sweep over the world and regions. One of the most famous Carnival's no doubt is Rio.

Personally, I love the Carnival in Basel, how do you spell that, since it is deeply rooted and historically based on the resistance of citizen against the Protestant order and authorities. ;)

GulfCoastPirate

Fred wrote: 'Now the very people who held the right to free expression as sacrosanct wish for a "separate but equal" right to the first amendment where symbols will be banned because, in this case, the NAACP and influential politicians, are dictating what is 'hate' speech that can no longer be allowed. '

Who, exactly, has called for the 'banning' of any symbol or in this case the confederate flag? Not having a flag fly over a state capital isn't the same as 'banning' that flag.

LeaNder

"Walker Percy in 'The Thanatos Syndrome' wrote that part of Southern Culture lies in not talking about it. "

it feels, I vaguely grasped this as one more general idea behind your trilogy, although I couldn't have put is well as you do. ;)

Thanks, anyway.

GulfCoastPirate

Tyler,

When the federal mandarins show up to tell you what to do give them my name and have them call me. I'll put in a good word for you.

GulfCoastPirate

turcopolier wrote: 'IMO anti-Catholic feeling is growing in many parts of the South. People I have known for fifty years are now reflecting the views of the Evangelical TV preachers in ways they never did before'

Very true.

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for the URLs - I was unaware of them.

Not surprised, however.

Mark Logan

kao,

It's my current impression the feeling that that flag has become so tainted it does not represent the south anymore is springing from southerners themselves. Alabama, for one example, doesn't have a reputation for instantly complying with the whims of liberals. For some, Roof was just the last straw.

Mark Logan

steph, '

Are they "running scared"...or is it some have "had enough" of the adopted symbol of southern pride being waived around such as the Klan and Roof, and by putting it on official buildings aiding those delusions of representing the south?

turcopolier

Mark Logan

I would find your thesis appealing if I believed that substituting the 1st National Flag would be acceptable to The Furies, but I do not believe it. pl

turcopolier

LeAnder

"one more general idea behind your trilogy," Yes. you can write about what such people would do but to declaim upon their motivations is unacceptable. pl

Farooq

"Have you ever worked on a reservation before? I mean in between the time you were a big shot reporter and meeting the secret police of the Shah of Iran, that is. "

I think you are mixing Richard Armstrong with Richard Sale. I could be wrong though.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/richard_sale/

RE

Tyler,
Maybe it's age and personnel experiences. back in the 60s a good friend of mine was walking down the hall of his high school when the place rioted. it broke along race and you either fought or took a beating. He wasn't a racist, but he wasn't going to lay down and take a beating, so, it was on. It happens

John

I posted this piece above:

U.S. Military Should Lead the Way in Disavowing Confederate Imagery
Steven Metz Friday, June 26, 2015
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/16095/u-s-military-should-lead-the-way-in-disavowing-confederate-imagery


Steven Metz is director of research at the U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute

Is that clear enough Mark?

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