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24 June 2015

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Richard Armstrong

How was the land not "theirs". What right did settlers have to encroach, attack and take possession of that land? Native peoples had utilized that land for centuries. You cannot argue that land was not wrested from their control by force. Like the Cherkee, Pawhusks, Creek, Pottowatami, Commanche, Arapaho, and other nation they were driven by force to the Indian Territories where by treaty the were recognized as sovereign nation by the U.S. Government. The land in the I.T. bore no resemblance to their homelands and did little to allow them to live as they had done for centuries.

My great great grandfather made the journey to the I.T. His land was taken by force. Not relativism but fact. As a child my father was forcibly removed from his home and taken to Haskell Indian school in Kansas where he was punished for speaking Muscokee and separated from his family for 12 years.

Their claim upon their lands would definitely held up in court if only there existed a court to hear it.

Babak Makkinejad

Regrettably & in my opinion you (as well as many others) fail to grasp what I am saying.

The fact of the matter is that there is a thing called Persistence of the Past.

One such instance of it is the old Diocletian Line – the modern world was created by 3 states West of that line – UK, France, Italy and parts of Germany (and much their off-shoot in North America).

No other states or areas of the world have ever reached the levels of the civic virtues, political organization, productivity and innovation and inventiveness of those historical areas; Italia, Gaul, Britannia, and Germania.

Russia – under successive waves of really quite brutal Revolution-from-Above starting from Ivan the Terrible all the way to Boris Yelstin – is the only state East of the Diocletian Line to have become a pale reflection of what France is – for example.

It is decaffeinated coffee but a very good one; I must say.

Why is not there a “West Bank Intellectual Set” in Bucharest, just like what existed for several decades in Paris; after all there is a river running through both cities?

[Do not tell me about Communism in Romania – it was not a cause, it was a symptom.]

And tell me when Bucharest is going to become as brilliant and vital a city as Paris? How many decades? Or are talking of centuries?

The honest answer is "Never".

Romania will never ever be able to match the depth of France - the single most important core state of the Western Civilization.

Let us be honest and admit that.

The analogue of that Diocletian Line in the lands of Islam is the old boundary of Seljuk Empire. And the analogue of France in her centrality to Muslim civilization - within or without the old Seljuk Lands - is Iran.

[The State that the West loves to hate.]

That is why – just as Bucharest will never become another Paris – Lahore and Cairo would never ever become another Istanbul or Tehran.

In my view, the entire development theory and practice over the last 150 years has been snake oil.

It has been based on the mechanical application of steps: do these things - A and B and C and you will become another UK or Italy or France.

It is best to admit, just like Romania and France, that such a thing is beyond the powers of man within any reasonable time frame of less than 200 years.

Regardless of what the recipe for development has been, no country in the world has been able to replicate the experience of Italia, Gaul, Britannia, and Germania.

Not even Japan; which, has gotten very close in certain narrow fields but has left the Western states collectively unmatched.

It is time we accept the empirical evidence and conclude that the best that most states could ever hope to be is some middle-income country which is going to be dependent on new ideas, techniques, etc. on that which is produced in Italia, Gaul, Britannia, Germania and now America.

With Russia and Japan being distant seconds.

The best of the best of the non-Western world would be analogues of Korea and Japan – high-income but never with the intellectual, political, technological vitality of Italia, Gaul, Britannia, and Germania and US.

Africa in this manner will be condemned to live for centuries in a lower-income status. Do you ever think that Kinshasa will become something like Cologne?

Arabs and Muslims outside of the old Seljuk Lands will meander hither and thither and their societies always being what they are today; their only hope being that the two Muslim states of Turkey and Iran could assimilate and native-ize enough of the Western Civilization to provide these non-Seljuk areas of the World of Islam a shot-in-the-arm, as it where, so that they can cope with the world as they find it today.

This is how I see the world and how I answer your implicit question as to why Muslims states (or African states etc.) are the way they are and do what they do.

If I am correct, then this asymmetry in intellectual and organizational power cannot be addressed at the cultural level, it would be addressed in the military level.

Thus certain 1950s eras technologies such as rocketry and nuclear weapons are being adopted to safe-guard state security.

In Iraq, in fact, you can see what I meant about the Persistence of the Past.

France and UK created new states from those old Ottoman Provinces; Turks had given up trying to pacify the Arabs and they had to deal with Allied Invasion etc.

They gave up their claims and UK and France moved in to establish new states. Which they did and they operated the new states sometimes overtly sometimes covertly and kept the social peace.

[Did you know that in 1950s the only neighbor of Iran more backward than Iran was Afghanistan?

Iraq was in pretty decent shape then.]

In Iraq, the backbone of the state was the old Ottoman Army that the English incorporated into the new state.

And when the English left, Iraqis revolted, murdered the King and his family, the Prime Minister, and showed their bodies on the Iraqi TV – dragging the body of Nuri al Saed in the streets of Baghdad.

Necons did not do that.

Iranians and the Shia did not do that.

And all of that was taking place with massive support from the people of Iraq who welcomed this supposed revolution – in reality another military coup - with cheers and enthusiasm.

And analogously with Syria – coup after coup, murder after murder – until Assad le Pere brought stability to that country.

Likewise for Pakistan, for Indonesia, for Bangladesh, for Algeria, for Egypt.

These people outside of the old Seljuk boundary did not want or could not understand or did not know how to build upon the governing structures that Europeans had bequeathed to them.

And they were not alone – Africa has been another sad example since the colonialists left.

[Look at Iran; 120 years of constitutionalism, search for Rule of Law, Freedom and Democracy and we have this restricted representative system.

Because we did not know, collectively, how to develop a national consensus, to maintain it, to build institutions of representative government and to support and run them.

But at least in Iran and in Turkey we tried on our won to develop more Western European-like governing structures – no one else was there telling us how to do it.]

I expect the Central Asian states, in time, to decay and follow the same fate like Arabs as the Russian-built structures decay.

Yes, I know that Shanghai is booming. China now has the most extensive network of super-high-speed trains in the world, built by China.

But you know what? They largely stole the technology from Alstom and Siemens. But the trains are now being made in China by the Chinese. They work and they are fast.

That is their limit; in my opinion.

Mark Logan

David Habakkuk,

Re: "Apparently now the urge to purge the past is to be turned on the Confederate heritage in the United States. But surely, half-measures are not appropriate, given the issues at stake. Can monuments to Thomas Jefferson be allowed to survive?"

I'm not seeing the appearance of a call to erase history and culture in this, it is instead a call to stop the revision of it into what people like Roof and the KKK think it is in the minds of others.

The call to strike the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia from capitols and official buildings is being led by Southerners themselves. Official government buildings are not museums and the symbols in front of them must speak for what most of the people stand for.

Unfortunately, only those such as the Hell's Angels, who are ready, willing, able, indeed...cantfrikinwait...to beat the stuffing out of anyone who misappropriates their "colors" can adequately curate who displays them, so symbols can and do become misrepresentations. They aren't the same as history or even culture. Symbols must change, at least in prominence, when they have been tainted by gross misappropriation, and to do so is to preserve cultural history, not destroy it.

All respect,
ML

Fred

LeaNder,

The increase of executive power at the expense of the Legislative and Judicial branches of government in our Republic is what I am referring to in the "experiment" - linking back to David's comment. As to symbols, what about the symbol of the '60's liberals burning the American flag while protesting the war in Vietnam was fully protected by the 1st Amendement right to free expression, which the liberals proclaimed as a sacrosanct right? Now the very people who held the right to free expression as sacrosanct wish for a "separate but equal" right to the first amendment where symbols will be banned because, in this case, the NAACP and influential politicians, are dictating what is 'hate' speech that can no longer be allowed. This is not about justice or even Mr. Roof it is all about power.

Fred

David,

Thank you for your reply. I find myself with much, much more to learn, for which I am grateful to you and our host. Samantha Power? God help us. She is an acolyte of the secular ideology and will bring about armageddon in her efforts to promote her world view if allowed to do so.

GulfCoastPirate

Tyler,

You may be on to something. Obama and the liberals found that white guy and enticed him to shoot nine black people in a church so they could implement their plan to take away the confederate flag.

They can't get anything by you ...

GulfCoastPirate

'Why must you resort to using epithets when referring to other posters? It does nothing to advance your arguments however you have proven time and again that it is certainly not beneath you.'

His side is losing. We're not going back to the 1600's. It's all he has left before the federal mandarins come to reeducate him.

The Twisted Genius

Charles Dekle,

Most of us probably knew you meant Tito, but I got a chuckle out of the error. All I could hear was "You and your little dog, too!"

Babak Makkinejad

How many anti-Semitic Germans - in cloth or outside of cloth - had issued an ultimatum to the Jews of Germany prior to 1600 - "Convert or Else?"

I assume you are aware of the fact that there were jailers in death camps who were Doctors of Lutheran Theology.

turcopolier

Mark Logan

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/opinions-mixed-on-changing-names-of-us-bases-that-honor-confederates-1.354614

You were saying? pl

kao_hsien_chih

RA,

Their claim to the land DID hold up in the courts: the Supreme Court of United States no less, in 1831--Cherokee Nation vs. Georgia. But, Jackson just shrugged and said, "Mr. Marshall made his decision. Now let him enforce it."

kao_hsien_chih

Walrus,

There is somewhat of an irony with regards Snyder: he may have contempt for nationalist academics, but he is himself a sort of nationalist academic (but for a nation that is not his--Ukraine.) His public statements about the Ukrainian crisis sound like Ukrainian propaganda.

LeaNder

You mean the spelling reform? It doesn't have the dramatic result the ideas of late 19th wanna-be-reformers of the English language would have had.

I didn't like idea. But got used by now to the modified reform.

I was part of a stronger resistance camp. The weekly DIE ZEIT published a version with only the changes they accepted. Some changes have been withdrawn again. Besides you hardly noticed it, while reading. They didn't really change much. Do you notice the French spelling reform much? I don't. Had one of the English reformers succeeded the language would have been distorted beyond recognition.

The NSDAP did not as far as I know reform spelling. Spelling had already been reformed in 1901. But they politicized writing. They picked up on older polemics that had been around with different or similar arguments but never succeeded. The political usage wasn't only about how one had to write but also who was not allowed to write correctly, meaning using the correct: writing/script. Closer to their end, they had a second thought about matters, or Bormann sent some kind of "edict". I forget.

kao_hsien_chih

DH,

Thanks for the long comment. Funny: for some reason, I've always thought of Bulgakov as a sort of Russian counterpart to Faulkner (or is it the other way around?) Similar intellectual style. Same appreciation of the immense power of culture and of the "place." Frank admission that there's no easy answers to complex questions. Ironic that anyone should try to read simple declarative statements out of them...but these are sadly times of simplistic declarative (propaganda) statements we live in these days.

kao_hsien_chih

ML,

I think you are suggesting the kind of subtleties that minds of today cannot grasp. Heck, these are the same kinds of people who wanted to ban Twain b/c of the N word. Socialist realism, except in modern day "liberal" colors, would suit them well.

Origin

Times and ethics were different then. Even Gen. Grant was a slave holder as was his wife's family.

Mark Logan

Col,

When they name someone who is actually calling for those bases to be re-named I will be able to judge the seriousness of the threat. Certainly "someone" is calling for that, but who? Smells more like a click generator than it does journalism for the moment. Let's not take "council of our fears"? ;)


Best wishes

Stephanie

Mark Logan,

I agree with much of what you say in principle. And I think R.E. Lee would be the first to say that his army's old battle flag was intended for one place - the field of battle - and should be removed from public display on state grounds (and as a potential source and symbol of division should probably never have been there in the first place). But we are now going farther than that and the question is, how far do you go? Col. Lang links to an article that says that that bases named for Confederate officers may be renamed. A.P. Hill owned no slaves and disliked slavery. As a US Army officer stationed in Florida he showed sympathy for the Seminoles. About as PC a fellow as you could wish for by 19th century standards.

And sure, Southerners are protesting the flag, and good for them. But really, it's the Chamber of Commerce and suburban voters who have the Republican politicians running scared, not some grassroots uprising. And do you seriously think that those operators McAuliffe and Landrieu are doing anything but scoring political points?

I exempt from the foregoing some of Rev. Pinckney's colleagues in the SC state senate, who are clearly speaking, and acting, from the heart.

You'll probably say that these pols are doing the right thing, even if it may be for the wrong reasons. To me it just looks like hysteria.

Croesus

"How many anti-Semitic Germans - in cloth or outside of cloth - had issued an ultimatum to the Jews of Germany prior to 1600 - "Convert or Else?""

I don't know.

How many?

In "Cultures of the Jews," Ivan G. Marcus wrote:

"Although many writers have emphasized the violence and insecurity that beset the Jews of Ashkenaz, Jews would not have survived there, let alone created what they left us, had that been the main story. Christian persecution was usually the exception rather than the rule, and it characterized some times, not others. The norm may be described as different patterns of social mixing between Jews and Christians; social-economic (trade, medicine, moneylending) and social-religious (conversion, sexual liaisons, arguments over religion), among others. . . .

One of the primary underlying and persistent reasons that the power elites of both cultures tried to separate Jews and Christians from time to time was the reality of their everyday social mixing. Jews lived closely and at times intimately with members of the christian majority, so much so that Christian leaders thought Jews were dangerously influencing the faithful and rabbis thought the same was true of Christian influence. Jews and Christians usually needed each other and so were attracted to one another that they persisted in interacting closely despite all but the most drastic measures designed to halt that social reality." pp. 450-451

In short, the notion of persistent German persecution of Jews has been exaggerated.

Marcus later explains that the deeply embedded concept of relentless Christian persecution of Jews should be understood as emerging from liturgical practices at those relatively rare times of real persecution, such as the beginning of the first Crusade in 1096:

"In the wake of the first horrific anti-Jewish riots in Europe [in 1096], liturgical texts did record the Jews who died then as witnesses or martyrs for their religion in central Europe. Traditional Jews recite these texts to this day.* As a result of the ideology of remembrance and martyrdom that synagogue poets created in the early twelfth century, Jews in Ashkenaz remembered only those times when they were persecuted and forgot the others when they were not. Modern historians proceeded to construct their accounts based on those preserved records and have forgotten that they were not the norm. Influenced by their own contemporary agenda as well, they lost track of the fact that they were relying on how medieval survivors wanted wanted their own past to be remembered as part of a strategy to build group solidarity. That ideology of persecution does not express the past itself in all of its complexity." (p. 451)

Mr. Marcus gives evidence of awareness of Dr. Helms' analysis.

It would be so helpful to have more complete history of Germany and Jews. The fact that the same is taboo, and that most 'history' is conveyed to the masses via Hollywood and History channel, makes the narrative suspect.

Erasing the Confederate flag and history has been set as the moral equivalent of the "necessary" erasure of "Nazi swastika."
Why not also erase the hammer and sickle?

It seems to me to make a lot more sense to know all that we can possibly know about how history worked out; to put as much flesh as possible on the stick-figures characters; take seriously Machiavelli's injunction to really study history rather than simplistically -- and one-sidedly, I dare say -- recite that "X was evil" and that's the end of it.

When I open a history of WWI or WWII and do not see "zionism" in the index, I know from the outset that it tells only 2/3 of the story at most. Such is the case for the majority of histories of the "great" 20th century wars. William Shirer wrote the "seminal" history of the Third Reich that influenced millions of readers; it does not mention zionism.

Very many Jewish people are passionately opposed to zionism; Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has led numerous protests and preaches often that zionists are "impostors" who have "stolen the Jewish identity."

Shapiro claims to have massed over 100,000 Orthodox Jews at protests against zionism about which, he preaches:

"The hate, the seething psychopathic hate that the zionist has for the Jew is not borne out of bigotry and it’s not borne out of ignorance, it’s borne out of fear — fear because they thought by now there would be none of us left. They thought that by now all the Jews in the world, or all that matter anyway would be remade in their image; that the world would be at peace with them; that they would be able to vanquish their enemies with their armies. And now they see that We Still Live! They see that we are rapidly expanding and they see that we raise our voices. They see that they are a failure and that’s why they hate us!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChQLH71HAo4#t=188


Rabbi Shapiro and the Orthodox Jews he leads are in a civil war with Netanyahu, Israel and zionists for "control of [Jewish] memory and dynamism . . ."

It's a good idea to be aware that there is a Jewish civil war taking place.

In a recent interview, Yossi Alpher explained the 'fabulous' (my word) historical memory that Israeli zionists seek to create --

" We Israelis, . . . to this day, have a need to -- a deep need to be recognized and accepted by the region. You see, Bibi’s demand, which is supported by most Israelis, that the Palestinians recognize us as a Jewish state, or the state of the Jewish people -- the nation-state of the Jewish people -- this goes way back, this need to be recognized. It explains our relationships with some of the Christian and Kurdish and Druze minorities as well, and so at the height of the periphery doctrine, when things are going well, there’s this sense that the ancient peoples of the Middle East have created an alliance, the people who precede the Arabs, okay. We go back with Iran, we just celebrated Purim, all right, we go back 2,600 years with Iran. The Egyptian, the Ethiopian national narrative is King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. So, this is almost a biblical -- a new biblical chapter.
This is how some people in Israel felt."

Israeli zionists whose origins and, one would think, memories, have their locus in Eastern Europe and Russia, fantasize that they are the legatees of the Persian empire and they are intent on claiming their "inheritance." It is highly significant that Alpher situates the point of interaction between Jews and Persians at the time of Esther, the only book of Torah thad does not mention god, and who oversaw the deaths of tens of thousands of Persians, rather than the earlier Cyrus.

Israeli zionists derive the energy -- the "dynamism" -- to attempt to realize their fabulous imago as heirs of the Persian and Egyptian empires from their rock-solid belief in the narrative of perpetual persecution of Jews. This is an extremely dangerous psychological condition that is tragically fed rather than corrected by what should be a wiser US political class.

---

vis a vis the Confederate flag: the tomb of Esther is still preserved in Iran and is a popular destination for tour groups.


Fred

Mark,

So Roof's actions were not those of a mentally ill person but a political action of a movement? Just what KKK support did this killer have?

Johnny Reims

Cville
Interesting observations. I am a Southerner who converted to Catholicism awhile back.

I know what you are talking about.

I am very sorry about Southern idiots not treating you well because you are from the North. It is an old dynamic. Southerners get the same when living in the North, but it is usually expressed a bit differently. I have always seen it as one of the evil consequences of that “war”. This dynamic was waning but...

As you probably know Southern “evangelicals”, particularly those of the John Hagee bent of mind are anti-Catholic, some virulently so. This type of anti-Catholicism is different from the KKK idiots, from all over the country, who have promoted ethnic nationalism over the past several decades. I honest thought all that idiocy was now of no influence.

Just so you know, Catholicism is absolutely booming in the Atlanta area, at least as I see it. All the churches are full and, for the record, very racially diverse (one reason, of many, I converted, I like racially mixed congregations who put race aside when the cup is raised).

But when I was growing up in a small Southern town, very few Catholics around, for sure.

I may say more.

turcopolier

All

Most of you are not interested but I will continue recounting the "trenches" of deconfederization as they occur. This morning I read that the Dean of the Washington National Cathedral (Episcopal) announced to the Washington Post that he will ask the board of the Cathedral to authorize removal of the RE Lee and TJ Jackson windows from the cathedral. He says that they are inappropriate to 2015. I suppose that means that the builders of the cathedral were just not smart enough to know these were evil men. pl

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your comments - always good to learn of history which in this case was unknown to me.

My initial outburst to WRC was caused by having lost my patience with all these glib statements - I assume from Anglo-Saxon Protestants of various types - which always imply the inherent "goodness" of the Reformation.

Things look very differently to me - all I see is dead people.

cville reader

Few people know that one of the states that the KKK has been the most active in is Indiana, and few people now pay attention to what the the three Ks in the name actually stand for.

I grew up listening to stories from my father, who grew in a blue collar dock town in NJ (most Catholics of his generation lived in towns like that even if they were not blue collar.) When he was young boy, groups of local men formed neighborhood patrols to fend off the KKK.

That was then, and this is now. The truth is that I have seen every bit as much racial prejudice toward blacks in the North and I have seen in the
South.

Most evangelicals who are anti-Catholic suffer from a great deal of ignorance. But it is still popular in some other quarters, as well.

turcopolier

Johnny Reims

IMO anti-Catholic feeling is growing in many parts of the South. People I have known for fifty years are now reflecting the views of the Evangelical TV preachers in ways they never did before. As someone wrote here the belief of simple people in the alien nature of Catholicism is ill based. There were a lot of Catholics in the Confederate Army. There were many Catholic chaplains in that army. The Confederate national government had a cabinet officer who was Catholic (Mallory). Lincoln had no Catholics in his cabinet. Pius IX recognized the Confederate States. I could go on, and on with lists like this, But, ignorance is often invincible. pl

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