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24 June 2015

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Fred

Tyler,

What is lost is the real history of T.J. Jackson paying for the teaching of the bible to Black Americans, both free and slave, in violation of the laws of Virginia both before and during the civil war.

scott s.

Tyler,
I thought the "Stars and Bars" was the First National Flag? There is a blogger whose "Civil War Memory" blog has long looked into the memory of "black confederates" and "flaggers" (though I suppose the latter term is considered derogatory). There has been spill-over into other ACW blogs such as ASU History Prof Brooks Simpson's.

It seems to come down to the continuing battle over "what the civil war was about", the centennial and resistance to civil rights via government action.

Patrick Bahzad

WRC,

The US is by no means the worlds oldest democracy ... It's not the richest either, at least ot in pro capita figures. It's the most powerful and the one with the most universal appeal though.
IMO, it has an obligation towards itself, and towards the generations that built it. upholding or implementing the principles and values on which it was founded seems a pretty straight forward idea to me.
But this gets increasingly difficult in a world where the particular takes more and more precedence over the universal.
France with its claim to holding universal values is facing similar issues, in a different context and environment.

Fred

WRC,

The Greek Democracy predates ours by a couple of thousand years.

turcopolier

hankP

IMO you misunderstand the quote. What Helms is saying is that no matter what you do the "tool box" will remain filled with all the things in a people's heart and those things will return with a vengeance. This is a very Jungian view of human nature. IMO Helms would cite something like the quickness with which Alsatians returned to Frenchness after WW1 as an example of the phenomenon. pl

walrus

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” - George Orwell, "1984".

If you read "Bloodlands" - the history of Eastern Europe between Hitler and Stalin, by Timothy Snyder, you will note that he has particular contempt for the nationalist academics who have reinterpreted history into nationalist myths.

Samantha Power is doing her bit for historical revisionism in the Ukraine:

"That tenacity – that willingness to fight for your voice, whether against internal oppressors or outside, would-be occupiers – is one of the proudest parts of Ukraine’s national heritage. It is in your DNA.

It is the legacy of the Ukrainian farmers, shopkeepers, and school principals who risked their lives by violating the central government’s orders to hand over their stocks of grain during the Holodomor, choosing to share it instead with hungry neighbours."

Really????

http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/243583.htm

turcopolier

All

It is possible to re-program an entire people but that is a long and difficult process. pl

wisedupearly

A shared consciousness does not spring up out of no where and certainly is not transmitted/maintained at zero cost.
All "faiths" take energy to create and energy to maintain. What keeps the tool box active?
Take our founding fathers. Was the Declaration of Independence an act of individuals or an act of government? Since the signers were representatives it must be the latter. Naturally we emphasize heroism of the signers as individuals but this comes at the cost of a loss of understanding. It seems to be that one particular tool in the box of most people is a visceral distrust of government. Not just a dislike of particular people in particular administrations but a complete and all encompassing dislike. The former is more logical and practical while the latter is proving to be quite destructive. But, as this posting asserts, there is no escaping the memes that are lodged in the collective mind.

wisedupearly

reprogramming is possible only if the new is significantly better than the old (self-reinforcing) or if the system has recourse (e.g. North Korea) to external resources.

turcopolier

wisedupearly
Your line of thought implies that it is inherently bad for peoples to maintain their separate identity. I do not agree with that in any way. The Navajo should be Navajo. The Maori should be Maori. To live your people's life is inherently good and results in you not being just another de-racinated serf for globalization and international business. Actually, the Maori example is apt. They remain Maori without evident penalty from New Zealand. pl

Babak Makkinejad

You cannot be serious about the Maori or the Fijians - they were cannibals before the conquest by Europeans.

Babak Makkinejad

It is difficult for me to imagine any state or government that could be considered to have been a creature of Satan more than the Aztecs; thank God for the Spaniards and their destruction of that abomination.

No re-programming was necessary, the Virgin showed herself up and the Mexicans converted en mass - it seems to me.

And then there was our widow-burning navel-gazing and head-chopping (of children but in service of Kali) Hindus.

Thank God for the English for having stopped all of that...re-programming at the point of gun.

wisedupearly

umm, the term "separate identity" is going to be a sensitive issue.
I see no problem with the Maori having their separate identity as they accept the underlying legitimacy of the NZ government. It is interesting to contrast the Maori with the Scots. The key difference is that the Scots have a homeland, a distinct geographical region with rational borders. Hence it may not be possible for the Scots to continue their acceptance (imposed by force) of Britain. The Maori were spread throughout NZ and hence it is impossible for them to "give up" say the North Island and retreat to the South.
The Navajo is a sorry case as the actions that determined their culture are in most part denied to them with the all resulting difficulties in maintaining a viable society.
Explaining the differences between the Maori and the Navajo is an interesting topic.

Tyler

GCP,

Because it totally didn't go from nine shot in a church to WE MUST REMOVE THE FLAG ON THE GENERAL LEE outta nowhere.

You are a fool.

Tyler

Fred,

There's a lotta lost inconvenient history, such as the first slave owner in these Americas being a black man. So be it.

Soon we will be learning how Saint Abraham Luther King, ancestor of Obama, personally freed the Jews from Jefferson Hitler, Nordic King of the South.

Tyler

Scott S.,

The people who want the government to have more power to tell you how to live your life like they think you do don't like the symbolism associated with a movement that struggled against that.

Funny, that.

Johnny Reims

Fascinating article re: Jim Webb

http://tinyurl.com/obfyqmr

Make of it what you will.

One angle that will have to be explored at some point. Blacks love living in the South, at least the Deep South, and Southern whites are glad blacks are around these days. It’s not a Marxist experiment. It’s a Southern experiment based on a unique Southern history. If you are an ethnic nationalist, you can forget the South. Good bye and good riddance. Southern whites all around the South are grieving for their spiritual kin and somewhat at a loss.

My God, the evil that Roof perpetrated. He murdered nine Christian martyrs as far as I am concerned.

It’s a Pandora’s box of evil. Satan must be clicking his heels with joy. But Satan must despise, absolutely despise, those Southerners MLK and Thomas Jefferson, deist that he was, and I bet he just loves tyranny, from the left or the right.

History tis complicated, for sure. We all know about terror from the right, but George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia (as well as Hemingway in the scene about Ronda in For whom the Bells toll) make no bones about the cruel terror from the left. Let's not kid ourselves, terror is on the right but it's on the left too.

http://tinyurl.com/njkbrxq

Fred

David,

Very interesting points. However with "...the urge to purge the past is to be turned on the Confederate heritage in the United States." I have to disagree and point out that the Northern states, unlike the USSR, did not fail. They destroyed the armed forces of the Confederate states, destroyed much of the industrial capacity of the South, wrecked what economy existed - and killed and maimed tens of thousands while also "liberating" all held in slavery (with no preparation for participation in whatever new culture was to be created). From that victory of principles the steamroller of manifest destiny has continued with little to stop it.

The Banned by Barrack anti-flag movement has managed to allow corporate and liberal interests to again collectively win politically over a region of the United States (The South). The Trans-pacific Partnership fast-track power voted down a week ago was just passed in the House and Senate, all before the dead have been buried. We should be recognizing we're burying the American dream for another million or so citizens with this electoral 'victory' but that won't be apparent for a few more years. We haven't escaped from the successful (unlike the Bolshevik) experiment of increased power of the Executive branch, far from it. Sadly the liberals are cheering it on.

Stephanie

Fred,

Athens wasn't a real democracy. They had slaves. I suggest getting rid of any busts of Pericles or Aristotle that might be around. Surely no need for reminders of that vile regime?

Richard Armstrong

Colonel please accept my apology. I miss understood the contact of your information operation statement.

Richard Armstrong

Tyler this is just my dunderhead understanding of the history of the native peoples of the Southeast. As the original inhabitants of the area they undoubtably viewed expanding as the original inhabitants of the area they undoubtably viewed American empire as an existential threat. Of course they were trying to prevent the settlement of their land because - well - the land was theirs.

Why must you resort to using epithets when referring to other posters? It does nothing to advance your arguments however you have proven time and again that it is certainly not beneath you.

The Twisted Genius

That quote and the furor over the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag reminded me of a post I made last December centering on a speech of the Fredericksburg, Virginia mayor given on the anniversary of the battle of Fredericksburg. She began with the line "history surrounds and speaks to us." It's a shame more Americans don't stop screaming long enough to listen.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/12/mayor-marks-152nd-anniversary-of-the-battle-of-fredericksburg-ttg.html#comments

It also reminded me of one of my favorite authors, Eric Sloane. I loved his accounts and illustrations of old post and beam barns, bridges and homes. His writings explored the lives and philosophy of the early American farmers, mostly 18th and 19th century New England farmers. This quote from Sloane was recently noted in the Old Virginia blog. It's a wise piece of advice.

"The spirits and habits of yesterday become more difficult to apply to modern everyday life . . . if we can only mark time with our scientific progress long enough to let the old morals and spirits catch up, we shall be all the better for it. The heritages of godliness, the love of hard work, frugality, respect for home and all the other spirits of pioneer countrymen, are worth keeping forever. What we do today will soon become once upon a time for the Americans of tomorrow and their heritage is our present day responsibility." (Eric Sloane in "Once Upon a Time: The Way America Was)

LeaNder

"The lack or disappearance of a national narrative that the citizenry adheres to also contributes to this phenomenon, with every minority - whether ethnic, religious, sexual or even political - demanding for its own collective memory and history to be taken onboard the national narrative."

You don't want to hear what this triggers as far as my own "national" historical memory is concerned. I am no historian but over the decades I highly enjoyed minority perspectives in the larger national narrative, and/or their documents in the larger field of history they made available to me.

I cannot of course claim to grasp Pat's own positions on matters, but strictly it feels to me that one of his demands could well be comparable. That he feels or thinks "the Southern perspective" or historical memory should be much more reflected and allowed to exist, beyond a purely victors lens and the resulting dictates.

Sometimes I stumble across a statement here, in which someone refers to "Northern events" after the civil war, for instance. They seem to interpret Pat's point of view similar as I do. Again, I could be wrong.

LeaNder

"In the US however, these various factors reach a sort of climax that might possibly be linked to one basic quality of the American people, and that is their outlook onto the future, turning their backs on old Europe and the past and writing their own new history."

Were exactly would you locate the Magna Carta in such a split, or "turning their backs on old Europe"? For whatever reason, I never looked at America with the idea of a split in mind. An evolution deeply rooted in the European tradition, maybe? Different from Australia, no doubt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta#Use_in_the_Thirteen_Colonies_and_the_United_States

"old Europe"? I have no idea if this has already made it as a neo-logism into the COD, Concise Oxford English Dictionary. But it may well have even made it into Webster. If I don't accept the neoconservative narrative, why should I accept its terminology?

LeaNder

There cannot ever be anything good in erasing parts of history.

I pondered a while, why responding to the question for me is a bit difficult. After all, we banned quite a bit concerning 12 years over here. I had many, many discussions about it, and I do not want to start one again.

Apparently there is a huge interest in memory, cultural memory, collective memory, at least over here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_memory

Erasing memory or historical remnants is not a new phenomenon. In other words the Taliban or Isis did not invent it. Apparently there is a much older instinct of erasing anything that wasn't considered to fit. And at its core, I think it may well be purely political.

The longer I let your comment sink, including forgetting about it for a while ;), the more I wonder if this couldn't have been my core problem in post WWII Germany.

personal memory: A American saxophonist, a good friend at one point in time, made me aware of remnants of Nazi-time in Freiburg. Let me pick out one specific item. On the main building of Freiburg university they have done a really bad erasing job. The building is built with sandstone. There was a swastika on it that was badly hammered away. Thus you could still see where it once was. Obviously had a different method been used, more people would grasp Freiburg university's very special history in Nazi times. Prominent: Heidegger.

My slight hesitation to join one or the other left parties that dominated the scene at Berlin university when I was there in the early 70s may well be indirectly related to the larger topic. But I also never stopped to have a liberal tendency based on a conservative core.

Apart from the fact that I considered a lot of them opportunists, based on experiences, and most were, I asked myself, that I recall vividly, if it wasn't a bit too easy to simply choose the perspective of the Nazi's enemies. In other words to what extend could it have been a simplistic way to ignore the past by simply picking up on something that had been erased before?

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