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15 March 2015


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Did you mean semi auto or fully auto? Cause the first thing that comes to mind in the case of the latter is an HK UMP, which is a pricey piece of kit.



semi-automatic. pl



Thank you for the clarification. You're right that they are lucky to be alive. For all of its faults .40 is a nasty round to get hit by.

How much blood now do Holder, Obama, Soros (funded the Ferguson protesters) and the rest of the racial grievance mob have on their hands now?


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Yes. I know. The 40 caliber is the lady FBI agent version of the 10 mm. PL



Going to borrow that euphemism.



"lady FBI agent version?" I understand that to be literally true. They didn't like the recoil. pl

The Twisted Genius

Whether this guy was gunning for the cops or some other guy in the 'hood over some totally unrelated issue, it makes no difference except to the spinners on both sides. And the spinning will be furious. The guy's a criminal and belongs in prison.

As far as it being no fun when the rabbit got the gun, I've often thought about this when I read a story about a police shooting or use of "jump out" tactics. What if the civilian, even if he is a street punk, fears for his life and uses deadly force against the police? Could that be a legitimate act of self defense?

Charles I

Surprised it hasn't come up in one of the stand your ground states. Numerous civil lawsuits over wrongful death - dog and human - unlawful entry, Without searching I know there are cases where civilians used deadly force upon no knock warrants, both right wrong addresses, and self defense or other lawful homicide has been upheld.



You're correct. So we get the snappy .40, made even worst with the P2000 with its ceap sights, polymer frame, and proprietary trigger.



I'm pretty sure that there's case law about when there was a no knock warrant search on the wrong apartment. Guy heard his front door come flying in and damn near took out a SWAT file coming down his hallway by firing groin high with an assault rifle. Judge ruled police should probably double check the address if they don't want to be shot at.

There's a subversive school of thought in ILETA (International Law Enforcement Trainers Association) that says the reason you see the response going through the roof is partially because you train to the lowest common demoninator. Physically, that's the 5'1 90lb woman. So all training and law is based off her since you can't separate between someone built like Mia Farrow and a 6'4 240 lb Deputy Dawg because equality.



In the current incarnation of the US republic, it would seem that only "law enforcement" has the right to use deadly force when in contact with a citizen. If a citizen uses a firearm in self-defense, he will not be alive for very long and if he does manage to survive & surrender he will be prosecuted & convicted as a cop killer.

The state is now the sovereign in practice not the citizens.


"What if the civilian, even if he is a street punk, fears for his life and uses deadly force against the police? Could that be a legitimate act of self defense?"

I think that the ever more common no-knock SWAT raids on homes provoke such situations routinely.

Someone stirred up at night because of armed intruders in his home may go grab a gun and look what's up. That would be a straightforward response. Or the dog may alert and attack the intruders.

With a SWAT team it also would be a justification for them to 'neutralise the threat'.



So far, I feel in such a situation as you describe the citizen would be at a disadvantage. And that's in their own homes.

It would probably be worse on the streets.

A citizen fearing for his life may be justified to use deadly force against a cop, but he will find himself under a murder investigation, the threat of a life or death sentence in a system rigged against him.

SAC Brat

There have been some botched no-knock raids here in Georgia, based on bad info and sloppy policework. Having been on the wrong side of a crooked police department in the past, I'm kinda big on rules and laws and stuff.



Hank Foresman

Here is some information on the .40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W


As for the shooter - indeed, a criminal who ought to be locked up irrespective of whether he sot at cops or ordinary citizens. The reaction by the Brown's is idiotic, and probably only understandable as a result of bitterness. And I agree that it will be spun to the fullest.


"There's a subversive school of thought in ILETA (International Law Enforcement Trainers Association) that says the reason you see the response going through the roof is partially because you train to the lowest common demoninator. Physically, that's the 5'1 90lb woman. So all training and law is based off her since you can't separate between someone built like Mia Farrow and a 6'4 240 lb Deputy Dawg because equality."

Nah. There is just a grain of truth in this. The incidents of the response going through the roof are taking place in an environment of police militarisation. You cannot ignore that.

One can observe with US police an adversarial tendency towards the population, with an over-emphasis on force protection and threat or use of overwhelming force to overcome real or putative resistance in confrontations. Here's a perfect illustration of such over-emphasis in practice:


While it is hard to blame police agencies or the military for trying to protect the lives of their officers and troops, the tasks for police and military differ. I think that the distinction has been blurred. When police pursues officer safety at the expense of the local population the resulting resentment shouldn't come as a surprise.

The Houston Police Department advertises its jobs with images like this:


The image pretty speaks for itself. The aesthetics used are notable as they IMO reflect a projected image as much as a self image: These are warrior-cops. IMO this is an attitudinal problem.

IMO the militarisation has come with the various 'wars' US law enforcement has been tasked with fighting. The police agencies have equipped themselves accordingly and adopted warlike attitudes. The freebies they received from the US department of defence didn't help soothe that either:


Compare a generic US SWAT team knocking down the door of a house in suburbia with a US patrol doing the same in Someplace Iraq. There is probably relatively little practical difference between the two incidents. The weapons and equipment will be similar, and so will be the tactics. They may even both have left a Humvee parked outside.




125 yards is 375 feet. Think about making that shot with a handgun. It will be interesting to see what the range really was. pl



Take a look at the crime scene on Google Earth. From the crest of Tiffin Street where it intersects with Harrison St. it is a very long shot to the grassy place where the police were. Harrison street is not a suitable location for the shooter. There are too many obstructions. The demonstrators were in Florissant Avenue between the shooter's position (if it was on Tiffin Street) and the cops. To put several rounds over the heads of the demonstrators with a handgun and hit the cops but not the crowd would require one to shoot quite high. Was this man that good with a pistol? OTOH there is a roof top position near Florissant Avenue. pl


I would like to know where, if at all, they found the brass from the shots. I can not imagine they were picked up by the shooter and it would, perhaps, be unlikely he had a casing capture device that you see at gun ranges.



You're preaching to the choir here. One if the most annoying things I encounter, as a war vet, is someone walking onto the job and proclaiming they know everything about the job because Fallujah. Older law enforcement officers allowed this tacticool, multicam BS to infect law enforcement so now everyone wants to learn combat rolls but no one knows how to talk to people.

On the flip side, many of these cities ARE war zones, and the police are an occupying army. Thank you diversity, thank you multiculturalism. The other problem is that the police can't win: they don't do anything (NYPD after Wu and Ramos were shot) they're lazy donut eating freeloaders. They defend themselves from a gentle giant trying to take their gun after being attacked its "Hands up don't shoot".

Our dumb retarded society gets the law enforcement it deserves.

The Moar You Know

That's not a shot I'd want to try to bullseye at night with a iron sight rifle. As for a handgun? Ridiculous.

If the shooter actually hit the people he was aiming at, he wasn't any farther away than fifty feet or so (and I'm being generous, I see a lot of "marksmanship" at my local range where guys have a hard time hitting the paper using an AR15 at seven yards).

The Twisted Genius


If the shots did come from 125 yards away, the shooter's story is probably correct. How often do we hear of victims of stray bullets in our area? Those shots would be strays that would hit the police victims at, at least, a slightly descending trajectory. I could see how the rounds would arc over the demonstrators and into the police crowd. That the police actually were hit would be just bad luck on their part. It's the reason I would always duck under cover when the locals would start their celebratory gunfire.

I figured I would have to do an 11 inch holdover to hit the target at 100 yards with my 22LR revolver. Beyond that, it would truly be indirect fire with the 22LR. I don't know what the .40 would require. Doesn't Basilisk have a ballistic calculator on his smart phone? He could probably tell us.



Basilisk is going to post something. .22 LR is usable out to 150 yards if you know what you are doing and have a rifle. 100 yards is easy. pl


TTG. PL. and all. There are lots of facts I don't know, My calculator wants the exact round type, CDA of the bullet, bullet weight, altitude, wind component and on and on. Just using a WAG, 168 grain bullet 1100 fps muzzle velocity, it looks as if the drop on a generic .40 S&W is about 7.5 " at 100 yards, and 22.3" at 150 yards. The .40 is a very capable pistol round, but it is running out of juice past 100 yards. That's not to say it is not lethal at that range, it certainly could be, but an aimed shot at ~125 yards from a semi-automatic pistol with a relatively short barrel is just a matter of luck (good or bad depending on how you figure) but as far as I am concerned, it's not about skill.

no one

TTG, I am surprised that experienced folks here think hitting a man sized target with a pistol at 125 yards is a challenge. Here is someone doing pretty well at even longer range with a 9mm (more or less equivalent to a 9mm).


I know I can a target of approximately that size with a .357 with a little hold over and Kentucky windage at 200 yards all day long. I imagine most everyone could do it, they just don't try.

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