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12 February 2015

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Patrick Bahzad

See you're conceding a point again when you were rejecting the whole idea in the first place. You wanted one example I gave you four. So if you saying now ISIS may have been to selective in choice of crucifixion that sounds on the border of interpreting the Quran in light of reason.
I also notice no reply with regard to other two points I made so I take it you agree there's is something there ...
As for your last statement, you only have centuries of Islamic jurisprudence against you

Babak Makkinejad

No I do not agree with your general point or specific points.

I selected the first and the last as examples and I believe I have rebutted them.

The only people who approached Quran, historically, in the light of Human Reason for any length of time have been a few Shia - despised by the other Shia as well as Sunnis; in my opinion.

You do not seem to understand how much people like "Not to Think".

Thinking is hard, that is why it took 2000 years to have an adequate theory of magnetism; for example.

Patrick Bahzad

I'm judging not based on what you say but how you chose to reply ... You state your disagreement but your avoidance at answering questions speaks volumes ! From someone who pretends to be well read and knowledgeable in the Quran, I'd say you can do better !

Babak Makkinejad

I am extremely well-rad, I am not deeply knowledgeable in the Quran.

Charles I

I am pretty ignorant of Muslim theology etc, but I am surprised no one has posted any thing like this here as we discuss authorities.

"Al-Azhar refuses to consider the Islamic State an apostate

Egypt’s Al-Azhar issued a statement Dec. 11, 2014, refusing to declare the Islamic State (IS) apostates. “No believer can be declared an apostate, regardless of his sins,” it read. Al-Azhar's statement came as a Nigerian mufti seemingly declared IS apostates at a Dec. 4, 2014, Al-Azhar conference. Al-Azhar stated that various media outlets had misrepresented the mufti's speech.

The sheikh of Al-Azhar, Ahmed al-Tayeb, repeated his rejection of declaring IS apostates on Jan. 1, during a meeting with editors-in-chief of Egyptian newspapers. This sparked criticism from a number of religious, political and media parties, especially since Al-Azhar could have renounced the Nigerian mufti’s statement on IS without addressing the issue of whether or not Al-Azhar considers the group apostates.

In press statements, Al-Azhar representative Abbas Shoman said that the institution had not declared any person or group an apostate throughout its history. Yet, this claim was refuted by the daughter of late Egyptian author Farag Foda, Samar Farag Foda, who called into an Egyptian satellite TV program, saying, “My father’s assassination came as a result of fatwas issued by the majority of Al-Azhar’s sheikhs declaring him an apostate, because he had called for the separation of religion from politics.”

Al-Azhar’s leaders — the grand mufti and the Council of Senior Scholars — have actually never declared any person or group an apostate throughout Al-Azhar’s history, yet they have not taken any measures against Al-Azhar figures who have issued fatwas to that effect."

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/azhar-egypt-radicals-islamic-state-apostates.html?utm_source=Al-Monitor+Newsletter+%5BEnglish%5D&utm_campaign=f991bff7cc-February_13_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_28264b27a0-f991bff7cc-93086137

turcopolier

Bandolero

IMO Iran has no interest in doing the job of suppressing IS/Nusra and the non-Iranian locals lack the strength absent Turkish participation. Sometimes you can't have what you want. This is one of those times. pl

Patrick Bahzad

I never doubted that.
but you won't find everything in books , and not everything you might know for a fact from a book will turn out that way in the real world.

Jim Buck

The British documentary maker Adam Curtis has a new film which addresses the influence of Wahhabism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXcpDO8_3qU

mbrenner

As FB Ali correctly stresses, fundamentalism in today’s world is largely a socio-cultural phenomenon. The revival of religious righteousness in a self-conscious dedication to restoration of a faith’s purest expressions is religious in content and aspiration. But its causes normally have little or anything to do with an individual’s or a small community‘s thirst for the meaning of life and/or for salvation.

Two forms of genuine religious passion are notably absent from cotemporary movements: piety and ecstasy. The pious spend their time in devotion and prayer – not attending rallies, fighting wars or engaging in manipulative politics. False piety, of course, is another matter (whether we think of Houston/Los Angeles evangelical preachers of mega-churches, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish settlers in the West Bank, Bakr al- Baghdadi, or phony Hindu swamis on the make). Ecstasy is trickier since the experience of transcendent states of mind and emotion do occur in group settings of various kinds. The ecstasy of Sufis or yogis or holy-rollers, however, is meant to be revelatory and to lead to a higher state of consciousness marked by spiritual awareness. The endorphins of battle maintained through a constant stoking of rage and passion for exalted sacrifice is quite a different matter.

The worshipful path that typifies Islamic fundamentalists is highly ritualistic – in both the performance of devotional actions and in the observance of minutely specified strict rules. Discipline and obedieince are its hallmarks.

So Islamic fundamentalism nowadays seems to have a double appeal. It provides an extraordinary high for persons desperately seeking to experience something more consuming than their unsatisfying lives. It also casts a mantle of sacredness over their search. That sacred quality, moreover, endows them with a lost collective identity as members of a culture and a people that have suffered from both feeling themselves losers by modern criteria and humiliated in multiple ways by others who have proven superior by those measures. Fundamentalism offers an alternative measure while explaining that they fared so poorly in the great civilizational competition because they have been led astray from the true by the impure and those seduced by the deceptive material world. Finally, the answer provided requires little in the way of individual initiative other than the initial decision to efface oneself for the sake of the cause, i.e. the True Believer.

Christian fundamentalists in the Bible Belt exhibit many of these same traits and experiences.

FB Ali

Michael,

Well put. I fully agree.

The unfortunate implication is that the only way to deal with a fundamentalist on the warpath is to either capture him or kill him. Or, prevent him from becoming one.

The Saudi government's push to spread their Wahhabi creed in the Muslim world is mainly to increase their influence. That it also leads to the spread of fundamentalism is, for them, incidental.

However, the similar push by the Wahhabi religious establishment, backed by lots of private and some official Saudi/Gulf money, is directly aimed at creating fundamentalists and helping Jihadi organizations, including the IS.

Since the two moves have the same immediate goal, they work in tandem and both tend to produce the same ultimate result. That is why it so foolish for the West to keep backing the Saudis and the Gulfies. (However, it does suit Israel - for the time being).

confusedponderer

"IMO Iran has no interest in doing the job of suppressing IS/Nusra and the non-Iranian locals lack the strength absent Turkish participation"

I think the 'absent Turkish participation' is key.

Unless the Iranians had least one major Sunni ally in this quest, any Iranian attempt at the pacification of Iraq/ defeating IS would quickly turn into an open proxy war, with Iran doing the fighting and dying and paying while the Turks and the Gulfies fund and sustain their enemies and have the Iraqis and international volunteers do the fighting and dying.

Iran could as well put an arm in a meatgrinder.

I think the Iranians are acutely aware of that.

Babak Makkinejad

Will Germany supply Iran - at no cost - 1500 Leopard tanks to Iran?

Will Russia supply 600 helicopter gunships - again at no cost - to Iran for fighting ISIS?

I think not.

Because that is what it takes.

Babak Makkinejad

I think the fundamentalist Christians are all Protestants that broke with the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has the intellectual and emotional and religious wherewithal to debunk, dismiss, and discredit all attempts at respectability by the fundie Christians.

It is the "Mother Church" and even fundies know it.

And it also is the most popular Christian denomination in the world.

The analogues of the Catholic Church in the Muslim world in terms of intellectuality and emotive orientation are the Usuli Shia Doctors of Religion; a minority among the despised minority of Muslims.

There is therefore no way that the Wahabai fundies could be battled in the plane of ideas.

Lord Curzon

Literalists tend to have a rather terminal effect upon forward progress.

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