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12 February 2015

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CTuttle

Aloha, Gen. Ali...! Al Akhbar had a great article on the burning...!

Slaying, Slaughtering, and Burning: ISIS, the Cinematic Caliphate

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/slaying-slaughtering-and-burning-isis-cinematic-caliphate

Nice to see the Muslim community condemning it widely...!

http://newsr.in/n/World/754wk7car/Muslim-clerics-condemn-burning-to-death-of-Jordanian.htm

Babak Makkinejad

ISIS has claimed that they had carried "Qisas" - Just Retribution in Arabic - since the pilot had bombed and set on fire innocent civilians.

As I have stated before, there is nothing that ISIS is doing that contradicts or contravenes Islamic Precepts.

Like Osama bin Ladin, who went and found a Sheikh to justify his war against America, ISIS, no doubt, has its collection of malleable sheikhs who will find a justification for whatever ISIS wishes somewhere in Islamic Tradition.

I remember Anwar Sadat calling Ayatollah Khomeini un-Islamic too.

CTuttle

I agree, Babak, in that all the Abrahamic religions can pick and choose their preachers...! But, as I keep a close eye on the A/P, it's heartening to see Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia, widely condemning the Wahabbist excesses in the MENA, and elsewhere, for that matter...!

Fabs

Babak Makkinejad,

"As I have stated before, there is nothing that ISIS is doing that contradicts or contravenes Islamic Precepts."

Can you elaborate on this with proofs from any Shariah you want ( Shia, Sunni etc..) and not just some random fatwas.?

The treatment of POW in Islam is specifically detailed . Here is an entry in Wikipedia for ease of access, and there is a whole lot more information I would be happy to provide that shows that what ISIS is doing contradicts the spirit and the law of Islamic jurisprudence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war_in_Islam

Abu Sinan

Just because one can find some scholar somewhere to claim something is Islamic, doesnt make it so. Somewhere in the middle of the hubris from the extreme right and the extreme left in Islam there is the truth. If course all sides claim to have it.

The fact is, the majority of the Muslim world does not believe in the Islam of ISIL.

The general's point about the Saudis, the Khalij in general, is spot on. Saudi is the epicenter of where this all came from and where it was exported from. The fact that we still have not addressed this at any level is a shame. Things will not change as long as money, arms and propaganda is still being exported.

Babak Makkinejad

ISIS does not recognize Jordan as a legitimate enemy; she is being led by a possibly apostate ruler who is attacking ISIS under the Christian Crusader flag. So the Jordanian pilot was not a legitimate soldier but only a common criminal to him was applied "Qisas:.

Babak Makkinejad

I have known many people who support the amputation of limbs or other "cruel and unusual punishments" as the very essence of Islamic Justice.

confusedponderer

"Just because one can find some scholar somewhere to claim something is Islamic, doesnt make it so."

True enough, but since Islam is a layman religion built on group consensus that doesn't matter all that much. For all practical purposes, it suffices that ISIS agrees with themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijma

It is no accident that historically the different schools of Islam engaged in violent conflict with one another.

Abu Sinan

I agree and so have I. The majority of them would also hate ISIL. Because you support traditional hudud punishments does not make you a supporter of ISIL, far from it.

Abu Sinan

The lack of any sort of official leadership, unlike Shi'a Islam, is both a benefit and a draw back. It is similar with some strands of Protestantism.

Shah

Thank you, Brig Ali, for voicing the opinion of the quiet majority.

How pure is pure! Wahhabis claim themselves to be the purest of the breed but across the desert ISIS asserts otherwise. To them the Saudis have derailed from the true and pure path of Islam. ISIS considers destroying the Kaaba in Mecca as one of their goals to purify Islam further.

Sooner or later one extreme ideology will sort the other out but it will not end there. Far from it. The Muslims’ desire (and I am a Muslim) to continue purifying Islam from within is a long way from being over. Whether US participates, or sides with one or the other, we will continue to witness more of the unintended consequences and extremes of savagery for many more centuries to come.

Note: ISIS on destroying The Kaaba: http://goo.gl/dk3wzo

Babak Makkinejad

Yes.

But then one could ask them what is it about ISIS is that they find un-Islamic.

turcopolier

Abu Sinan

"unlike Shi'a Islam" 12er Shiism is still consensus based in the Hawza and no man's opinions survive his death unless endorsed by the living. pl

confusedponderer

Agreed!

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, but at least they have succeeded in reducing the number of people whose opinion defines Islam and the rank-and-file Shia are comfortable with that.

Sort of like what a few professors in a few famous universities set the agenda for research in this or that field.

turcopolier

Babak

Yes. What do you think of similarities between 12er Shiism and the LDS religion (other than LDS polytheism)? And how abut a few words on the different kinds of 12er Shiism? I have never really been clear on that. pl

Charles I

I recall you and I sparring over death to drug addicts one time, bearing in mind that if that was the prevailing justice in my one-time milieu, I wouldn't have been there to argue with you!

Patrick Bahzad

Actually ISIS has done a number of things contradictory to precepts of Islam, but there are enough 'surahs' in the Quran, or enough hadiths, that even mediocre clerics could use as an excuse and justification for what ISIS did.

Regarding Sadat calling Khomeini un-islamic, it probably didn't have the same meaning as in the context of ISIS.

To the Takfiris among them, any Shia religious leader might risk being accused of apostasy or of being a kafir, with the unpleasant consequences this may entail under their interpretation of sharia.

Babak Makkinejad

name one...

Babak Makkinejad

Those opinions will get you killed in Pakistan.

Babak Makkinejad

Drug usage, in fact, was not considered against Islam for centuries until relatively recently. The Quran is silent on it and the current death penalty laws in Iran or in Indonesia are administrative in source.

Patrick Bahzad

I'll name just a few, in no particular order:

- the number of death penalties by crucifixion has "boomed" in areas taken over by ISIS. the penalty as such is perfectly acceptable in Islamic Law but its application is strictly codified (under sura 5:33 of the Quran). ISIS 'judges', in particular Raqqa's Tariq al-Jibuli, apply this punishment more and more indiscriminately. That goes against precepts of Islam.

- foot soldiers of the FSA who refused to swear allegiance to the "Caliph" were executed under the rule of 'Al Walla'a wa Al Bara', meaning they were accused of being allied to infidels, which is a form of apostasy. Which infidels were they allied with, given they fought the same [apostate] enemy that ISIS is fighting against in Syria ?

- punishment of amputation of thieves in times of war, when civilians have no decent way of finding food, goes against the precepts of Islam. Sharia clearly states the conditions in which amputation is acceptable and these conditions are not met in ISIS territory.

- more fundamentally, under Sharia, the Caliph is not the ultimate judicial authority. It's the "doctors of the law" who make sure everybody, including the Caliph himself, abides to Islamic law. The Caliph himself is at the service of Islam, and Islam is not at his service. In the ISIS-entity, Baghdadi makes decisions and has them approved by the 'judges' he appointed himself. That goes against the precepts of Islam.

Need more ?

Lord Curzon

I've always tried to steer those Muslims I've encountered who take a more literal interpretation towards Allamah Tabataba'i's Tafsir Al Mizan. The look on their faces as they progress through each volume is like watching the sky when a new planet appears!

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your comments.

The verse 5:33 reads:

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

Since ISIS rejects the need for interpretation of the Quran in light of Reason, its application of the punishment of crucification cannot be challenged.

ISIS is self-declared True Islam and by definition all its enemies are warring against God and His Messenger.

The most another Wahabi can argue is that ISIS has been too selective in the form of punishments it metes out on basis of this verse; that perhaps ISIS ought to cut limbs off instead of crucification.

As to your last point, the revivalist Muslims - such as Wahabis - do not care one whit about the historical evolution of Islamic societies; they want to recreate the days of the Prophet and the 4 Khalifs - who were the Ultimate Judicial Authorities.

They are closest to Khwarej and others of their ilk; fantasizing about riding with the Prophet on a Holy War, but this time perhaps in a tank.

Your other point, in the last paragraph, about supremacy of the Law - that was never the case in reality of Islam; nothing ever protected a Muslim from the depredations of the Khalif, his regents, his commanders, his agents etc. in a consistent and coherent fashion.

The idea that the ruler is subject to the Law itself is a Revolutionary idea.

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, that is a great book and he tries his best even where he could have used subject matter experts such as in the areas of modern science and medicine.

But I think for many people, specially Wahabis, it is precisely the need for people like him that is being rejected; "I know Arabic, I can read the Quran, and I can make my own mind" and "I certainly do not need no rafizi to tell me what to think."


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