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08 January 2015

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Kunuri

i dont get your reply, can you clarify before i say something rude?

The Beaver

Cee

It is the younger brother when he first joined the 19th Arrondissement - Butte Chaumont group. That was before he went to prison ( for trying to go to Syria to study about the religion at Al Fath institute in Damascus)
It was on Envoyé Spécial on France 2 last night.
If you have TV5 in the US , you may catch the whole 90 mins programme.

Medicine Man

Kunuri: Dubhaltach and confusedponderer are both being facetious. In a previous thread Dubhaltach spelled out how much he dislikes people in distant lands (pundits in particular) projecting their own biases and preconceptions onto events in places close to his home. CP is baiting him, tongue-in-cheek, into a mutual exchange of sarcasm over the practice.

Cee

Fred,

I'll never understand the need to offend anyone in that manner. I wasn't outraged.

The Beaver,

Thanks. I'm traveling and will try to view it online perhaps.

turcopolier

All

AQAP has now claimed direct C&C responsibility for the operation. I take them at their word. pl

Babak Makkinejad

Thank you for your comment.

You are saying people have choices; well evidently one of those choices is to take up arms and kill those who are conceived to have sullied the Honor of the Prophet or Islam or both.

I think it more wise to avoid situations in which some people are caused to feel that they need to make such choices.

I think there are a few churches in Italy now that are closed to visitors since they depict the Prophet in the (Christian) Hell and a few Muslims had apparently tried to destroy them.

There is also the fact that Art has Power and expecting people to react to that Power in the same manner is foolish.

All over the world, major works of Art have been attacked by deranged individuals.

Kunuri

Thanks MM, I see, now I will go back to my downloads of "In Living Color" and "All in the Family".

The Beaver

CP

If you had follow the Mohamed Merah affaire in 2012 in Toulouse, those two groups don't mess around . They go for the kill.

FYI: From a show on French TV last night, the former director of the DST-Direction de la Surveillance du territoire- under the ministry of the Interior, said that they assign 25 agents for every subject under surveillance.

One or both brothers were under surveillance

Fred

Cee,

Neither was the artist or the staff of the NEA or the judges of the show. Maybe they can all follow up with a rendition featuring the Prophet.

different clue

"Such people" extort our worshipful fear by threatening to commit mass murder and terror if they claim to "feel" themselves to be provoked. When such people see us self-censor some aspect of our behavior they move on to extort our self-censorship of more behavior by continuing credible threats to commit mass murder and terror if they contrive a further "claim" to be provoked.
They will continue such extortion until they see us ignore their pretenses of being "provoked" and effectively smash and crush every particular effort to enforce their extortionate control over our behavior.

This would go for any person or group which pretends to be "offended" by something. Their pretense is a bad-faith cover for their desire for total control over others on their own would-be total-controlling terms.

Amir

As'ad Abu Khalil is not a proponent of Streicher. If one reads As'ad's article carefully, one realized that he is comparing the Hebdo jokes to "Der Stürmer" and is rightfully considering these cheap unfunny cartoons as hate speech. He specifically condemns the killing of this Hebdo individual but thinks the latter is not worth making a martyr off.

Regarding the peacefulness of "christians", you might want to read about the following cannibal story:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538471/Footage-emerged-cannibal-eating-leg-Muslim-Central-African-Republic.html

By Christians, you are talking about 1.500.000.000 people. Surely, statistically speaking, you can find one cannibal within that community. Same goes for other ethno-religeous groups.

Amir

I agree with you. It is a fact that single extreme violent bigoted actions are more visible in the European immigrant community. They are rare (=statistically insignificant) but very shocking and "marketable".

However, the general racism in those countries by a large vocal and MINORITY, though under the radar, has a more profound paralyzing effect for the affected community.
If you move the distribution curve a little bit to the right/left, the effects are more profound but less visible than if the outliers commit spectacular crimes.

P.S.
I am not saying that the 12 people who were killed are just numbers.

Amir

As'ad Abu Khalil just wrote a response to your comment. I will sum it up: "...the target audience and the standing of the different religions in different societies, the quality of attacks and insults are not the same…"
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2015/01/insulting-islam-versus-insulting.html

Babak Makkinejad

As I said, I do not find it advisable on MLK day to go to Ferguson, MO, distributing leaflets that denigrates MLK, or African-Americans, or their culture or their heritage.

Unless I am a good Olympic sprinter, that is...

Medicine Man

Amir:

The bleak irony of this situation is that under other circumstances I would not feel particularly inclined to stick up for the likes of Charlie Hedbo. I quickly perused their work and I found it looked like low-grade, tabloid trash to me — at least based on what I could understand.

If my impressions are at all accurate, one could make the argument that the staff at the paper sometimes exercised their rights unwisely, or that their speech was harmful, but one cannot dismiss the fact that their murder was an explicit attack on one the cherished secular pillars of western civilization. The gunmen may have accepted their martyrdom but they also made martyrs of their civilian victims, regardless of the flaws the slain had in life. In essence, the attempt to intimidate the French into muzzling themselves, at gunpoint, makes the reaction to the shooting about more than just the slain.

Dubhaltach

CP and myself are in agreement and I am teasing him that he is the German equivalent of the famous cheesing eating surrender monkeys so beloved of American francophobes.


Dubhaltach

confusedponderer

I feel similarly ambivalent.

On the one hand Charlie Hedbo were pretty much jerks when one looks at their rabidly anti-clerical anti-religious cartoons. People are right when they say that at Charlie Hedbo the Catholic church got it as bad as Islam did.

And yet ... there is the point in the lives of children, at which they find out one way or the other that when you tease a dog long enough it will at some point bite, the badder the dog, the worse the bite. Charlie Hedbo's staff has unleaned that lesson.

And in America there is the concept of 'fighting words' that refers to essentially the same thing.

That said, I have a certain fondness for cartoons in general, and I certainly sympathise with Charlie Hedbo's irreverence in light of the threats levelled against them.

What these two killer did to the staff of this rag is simply a brutal crime, and cannot possibly be justified.

I fully second your well put statement that

"one cannot dismiss the fact that their murder was an explicit attack on one the cherished secular pillars of western civilization. The gunmen may have accepted their martyrdom but they also made martyrs of their civilian victims, regardless of the flaws the slain had in life"

It is another bleak irony that, if France had some limits on freedom of speech as far as blasphemy is concerned, they may have protected Charlie Hedbo from themselves.

Fred

Amir,

I disagree with your interpretation. The implication the Der Stürmer, an instrument of Nazi propaganda from 1923 to the surrender of Nazi Germany, and this paper is absurd. The blogger is yet another intellectual for whom the realities of the free world are offensive.

Regrading peacefulness of "Christians" I refer you back to the Protestant Reformation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
I believe that is precisely the future the jihadists and their enablers are moving the Islamic world towards.

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