16 December 2014


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FB ali

If it was not religion, then why did your father leave? Muslims who remained in India seem to have done well in spite of Hindu fanatics. pl


Majority of muslims did not come to India with Mughals. Babur's total army numbered 12000 when he came to India and at that time there was already a major presence of muslims in what is today Pakistan and North India (Indian Punjab, UP, Kashmir etc).

On conversions what you are not paying attention to is the fact that conversions to this day are a means to escape lower caste status in Indian Subcontinent. The situation is so bad that even if you convert the stigmas remains. The Christians in India and Pakistan today face such discriminations owing to their recent conversions and as their caste status is well within generational memory of other people. The 'untouchablity' is widely used against them just like the unconverted lower castes.
Another major factor that you are missing is the fact that the areas of Punjab, Sindh in Pakistan today and North India are littered with shrines of Sufi saints. The version of Islam that they preached is very syncretic and poles opposite of your middle eastern variety of 'convert or i'll behead you'. Some of these Sufis are revered equally by hindus for example Ajmer Shareef.


Sachar Committee constitued in 2005 by the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh submitted its findings on condition of muslims in educational, economic and social spheres.

Here is one of their main finding
"The status of Indian Muslims are below the conditions of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.[8]"

FB Ali

Col Lang,

The basis for the creation of Pakistan was not religion per se but culture, ie, that Muslims and Hindus were so different culturally (of which religious belief was only one part) that the Muslims would always remain a minority distinct from the majority Hindus who would naturally rule in a united India. Experience in 1935-39 had confirmed the fear that this would lead to massive discrimination against them (due also to the historical background of Muslim rule over largely Hindu India for several centuries prior to British rule).

A relatively small number of Muslims have done well in India, but the great majority have not. A committee set up under a judge produced a report in 2006 detailing this (see http://tinyurl.com/c5lbum).

William R. Cumming

Not mine to lose but definitely spinning into the abyss IMO!


As far as I'm concerned, you need not have put the link in. (I don't see it). Whatever he talks about, or writes, about his recommendation always is: The US has to give more money to Pakistan. Always. More. Once, now, long ago, that may have been possible. Today it not. Except with financial sorcery that the US Fed cooks up.


Agree. Agree 100%. And it needs to be drummed into our (Americans) head. Although I have my doubts it will ever break through the stone wall that is the body politic in the US circa post 1991.


FB Ali

I agree with traditional Islam in thinking that culture,religion (deen), politics, family life, etc. are all one thing. pl

Babak Makkinejad


Both Muslims and Hindus in India have been resistant to the ideas of the modern Western World.

Please see:


Babak Makkinejad

And then there is the deep anger and prejudice that informs the vast majority of Hindus against Islam - including the better educated ones.

I met Hindu engineers in US that took the side of the Hindu mobs in the violence of Gujarat.

I raised the point that the Law was being violated but I did not seem to be able to make an impression; collective guilt and collective punishment seemed to be the way they thought.

Babak Makkinejad

India's flirtation with Israel must be understood in the context of the mutual Hindu-Muslim antipathy.

Babak Makkinejad

You cannot blame Bhutto, the Ulema opposed his premiership.

Why was not Ma'adudi and his ilk sent into exile?

Why have Pakistanis rented themselves to Saudis and Neo-Salafis?

Why has Pakistan tried to legally define who a Muslim is and push millions of Ahmadis into a sort of citizenship Limbo?

Babak Makkinejad

I have hopes that Turkey, like Iran, will find its conceptual footings and create a new synthesis.

It is other Muslims states that are in the abyss - and need these two states to succeed to pull them out of the morass that they are in.

They are the only hopes of Muslim polities everywhere; in my opinion.

William R. Cumming

Babak! Thanks for your insightful comments. Is Egypt likely to influence MENA positively given its size and influence or did the Peace Treaty with Israel end that possibility?

Are there any possible contenders, other than Iran and Turkey, for broad cultural and governance influence in MENA? I was going to say religious influence but based largely on this blog I long ago abandoned the notion that Islam could be a unifying force in MENA! Perhaps am wrong!

MENA= Middle East and North Africa!

William R. Cumming

If Iranians decide to emigrate or plan to do so what are their destinations likely to be?

William R. Cumming

P.L.! I think your comment correct and very very
important IMO!

Cell phones and tvs don't bring modernity!

William R. Cumming

General Ali! Please excuse my ignorance but was PARTITION before or after the British exodus? And did or could the British been an influence on that partition?

William R. Cumming

Is there a published source for the amount of foreign assistance, civil and military, to Pakistan and India and the annual amount of remittances from Pakistani-Americans and Indian-Americans to their respective Nation-States?

What other religions are present in any significance in Pakistan and India other than Muslim or Hindu? Are they tolerated or discriminated against?

What are the return rates to Pakistan and India of U.S. residents or citizens originally from those countries?

What multilateral organization[s] has [have]the best statistics on these two countries?

Babak Makkinejad


You must be joking...

The distance between Egypt and Iran is like the distance between Romania and France.

There are no contenders if I am correct at my surmise - the centrality of the Seljuk experience.

Babak Makkinejad

Before the economic war against Iran started in 2010, the refugees from religion would have tried to go to Western states.

The business-oriented to Georgia, Dubai, and other such places.

Those wishing to just chill, Malaysia.

William R. Cumming

Thanks Babak and just making sure of your views which I respect.


Babak: Please excuse my ignorance of the history of the region. What is the link between the possibility of accommodating Islam and Western modernity and having been in the direct sway of the Seljuks?

What role did the persistent spurning of Turkey by the Christian gentlemen's club called the European Union play in closing off possible accommodation?


Westernization and modernity can be mutually independent, just look at Japan.


Looks like many comments have gone missing. Accident, or design? Or have the Sony hackers discovered SST?



If I don't think your comments are contributory I remove them. pl

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