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06 December 2014


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I would rather the college be nameless; we toured around many VA schools and the Greek scenes were rather similar. There was always a keg in play with folks enjoying it, every day, but I think the distinction the UVA fraternity's lawyer is making is between a scheduled social event (which brings a large crowd) and every other day at the fraternity. Admittedly, I am a bit biased in my perspective because I did not appreciate the way female students were perceived or treated, even if most of them were willing; so I spent less time in that culture as I learned more. I don't know if that makes me "liberal" although I do not perceive myself as a leftist; but my personal belief is that we should lionize true Gentlemen rather than pretending to have such values. I value tradition and feel that those who talk about nobility most have lost it.



Anyone else seeing parallels to the Bill Cosby accusations regarding a complete lack of journalistic standards?

I mean, Cosby is a vocal critic of African-American hip hop culture and given the "hands up don't shoot" and "don't choke me" issues du jour...

...Is this mass media manipulation or do I have my tin foil hat on too tight?



As you know the issue is not how repulsive frat boys can be or what the general partying habits of frats are. the issue is what this particular frat did do that weekend. pl



I went to school with a lot of FFV people who were consciously trained to be like true gentlemen. Most of them turned out to be business sharks. pl



Who taught all those men to 'liquor up' the freshman women, Mom, Dad, the public school system (or the private school if they attended one), or did the lifetime of moral teachings of parents and schools simply disintegrate upon arrival at a college fraternity?

My experience at a fraternity member in Florida was entirely different than yours. The biggest complaint against sororities and fraternities was not that they held parties but that they ran the student government by requiring all members and pledges to vote in student government elections. Sure played hell with getting funds for your favorite club if you couldn't convince the Greeks it should be funded.



So UVA has managed to attract tens of thousands of adults from across the nation to enroll as students and the only ones who hold keggers and act like asses are confined to the membership of fraternities and sororities? How'd UVA manage that? While I was at Florida there were certainly frat parties, however there were at least a half dozen parties every home football game at various apartment complexes that catered to students and usually one every weekend in the "student ghetto".



I noticed the same thing.


"I suppose that the frat house could be re-painted or some other project devised."

Maybe buying a massive glass table and placing it in the middle of the main hall with a big round stone on its center, where it reads:

Scattered mind in the dull of class
Daydreams of tingly shattered glass


Because it seems there's always a member of the Tribe behind these stories.


I grew up in the South, would probably classify myself as "of the left," and have hung out with both Northern and Southern left-wingers of a similar ilk all my life.

I've never once heard anyone mention an interest in the reputations of Southern universities. The only university-related subject area that I hear about (*constantly* -- from my wife's dad, a conservative former nationally-read columnist) is how liberal professors everywhere are corrupting our youth.

Perhaps left-wing paladins want to destroy the reputations of Southern schools, but among the "common folk" the subject doesn't come up.


Tidewater to Turcopolier and All,

I grew up in Richmond, went to college in the North, joined Delta Kappa Epsilon, live in C-Ville, and have a number of old friends I don't see much of who were members of Phi Kappa Psi. I used to think they were called "Phi Kap's" and not "Phi Psi's." That these guys could have done "back in the day" something like what Rolling Stone reports is beyond belief.

But that was then. And this is now.

From the first I thought that one way you could look at the Rolling Stone article to discern its improbability would be to guess at what police could have done in the event that the victim had set the bureaucracy in motion. I think a medical examination, perhaps better done at Martha Jefferson to avoid any conflicts of interest, would have produced more than enough probable cause for a broadly drawn search warrant. There could also be the subpoena duces tecum, which could seize fraternity documents, university documents, phone call records, emails, cell phones, computers, clothing, whatever... The victim would have had injuries to her mouth, heavy bruising, cuts on back or arms, signs of violence to her genitalia. Swabs of her arms and legs might produce DNA from the hands of those who had tightly gripped her. There could be traces of semen and blood on the rug. There could be invisible blood spatter on the floor or walls. There is the bloody dress. There are the statements of her three friends and the naming of names. There could be the physical examination and interviews of those whose names were named. (Any mat burns on the knees; any cuts?)

A search warrant would mean that the building would be locked down and searched. Police could run a luminol test on the room, or if need be, on several rooms. Luminol tests would reveal the area where there had been blood stains even if the area had been cleaned up. The fraternity dumpster and neighboring fraternity dumpsters could be secured and searched, particularly St. A's, to see if perchance the problem had been passed along to the other Richmond fraternity. Police would look for broken glass, the remnants of the table, any items with blood on them such as towels, the rug, any clothing, underwear, used condoms. The condoms could provide both victim's and perpetrator's DNA.

Sooner or later immunity could be granted to one of the alleged "pledges" and then any defense by the perpetrators would collapse.
If you look at the 18.2-67.4 sexual battery section of the Virginia code you can find very clearly laid out what the consequences are. The use of an inanimate object is covered. I can see lawyers discussing over a dram whether or not there could be the RICO conspiracy angle if any proof could be found that any form of sexual abuse might be a secret protocol of the fraternity! In Florida, in 1980, a prosecutor might have pondered whether three hours equalled abduction as well! You might say, given the extreme vulnerability of the perpetrators that Jackie is lucky to be alive.

I am relieved that skepticism is beginning to take hold. I think a special grand jury should be convened. I would be particularly interested to hear, or rather hear about, since these sessions are closed, as in a report, the sworn testimony of the three friends who found Jackie on a nearby street corner (Madison Lane and West Main Street?)after a desperate phone call. If that fact is sworn to by the three friends, or by any one of them, under threat of perjury, then I suspect --given what we know now--that there is the distinct possibility that this is a carefully contrived, elaborate, brazen deception by Jackie; and this deception, splendidly mad, actually, and really quite interesting as a psychodrama--our Jackie is more interesting than we thought!--, would have required good acting, careful timing and costuming by her--as for example in the matter of her distressed appearance, near hysteria, visible injuries (?) and bloody dress. But then again, if the three friends decline to testify on this issue on the advice of their attorneys, who can be present at a grand jury hearing and give counsel in a limited way, then it looks like both the friends and also Rolling Stone are going to have some problems. They could be seen to have been complicit in a hoax from which they are trying to back away. But what in the world have at least one, or is it two, of the friends told Rolling Stone, and is it on tape, as it should be? If they testify that they actually didn't meet with Jackie on the street corner, and no, they actually did not debate among themselves whether or not to get her to a hospital while she stood there in a state of shock as described in the article, because NONE OF THIS HAPPENED; but, oh yes, we did tell or somehow imply to the (surely confused) Rolling Stone writer that the meeting on the corner--yeah-- did, like happen. If so, are we--the eager public-- now in Alice in Wonderland? What is this? Fraud? A joke? Some sort of protest against Woman's place in a Man's univerity (and world) done as in Artaud's Theater of Cruelty? She wore a red dress? Did she wear red earrings? Was the subtext(somehow inverted) that she was derisively breaking the proverbial glass ceiling modern women face with her cute little butt? (Well, OK, OK.)

The reporter's notes should be subpoenaed. Any tape recordings or videos should be subpoenaed. We are told that the one male among the three friends on the corner declined to be interviewed. He should now be interrogated by the grand jury. The other two women seem to have made corroborative remarks. They should be examined by the grand jury. We need to know what happened on the corner. If nothing happened on the corner it would be amazing and we would be left most thoughful. With other questions. But the Rolling Stone story would collapse.

The three friends seem to me to be a point on which the case turns. They are some of the few people we know who actually exist. As things stand it is my understanding that the actual perpetrator's name she provided to authorities and to the media who has been called "Drew" -- does not match anyone in Phi Kappa Psi; in fact, the name does not precisely match anyone at the University of Virginia. She has now said she doesn't know if it was Phi Kappa Psi that she had gone to for the party. Girl has got the vapours!

But just to throw some sh-- in the game, there is the whole matter of Liz Seccuro. It is not a matter of 'her word against his'. Nor is this a matter of getting a girl drunk to take advantage of her. Liz Seccuro's book Crash into Me tells an amazing story. It is a story of a seventeen year old girl who is handed a green drink, a "house special" that almost immediately incapacitates her. She is gang raped. There isn't much room for debate about the matter. The case was adjudicated. I thought at the time the case went to court that this was one of those things where a drunk girl regrets the night before. No! Not at all. Jesus Christ! This is drugging of a teenaged girl with a date-rape drug (called in a truly cavalier way, 'roofies'; they can kill you) followed by aggravated sexual battery. That went on for hours through the night. At least three men were involved. Where did this happen? At Phi Kappa Psi. In 1984. When this thing was decided in November of 2006 and William Beebe was sentenced to ten years in prison (he would serve six months because his confession was a strong mitigator) I still don't see how it was that the University of Virginia did not immediately put Phi Kappa Psi on social probation for a year or more. Or do at least something.

So it looks like Jackie's story is fantasy; but Liz Securro's is horribly all too true. I think something is wrong at UVA.


I hadn't noticed. Thanks.


But Sonny-Buck-Junior-Boy and Bubba never learned to type (it's unmanly). Anyway, they are busy franchising their dog fighting enterprise.



I assure you that male, white, undergraduates at UVa are quite literate and the chance that they are involved in dog-fighting is minimal. Dover Foxcroft is a long way from Charlottesville. Have you any connection to Mr. Jefferson's university? pl



I agree that a full blown police and GJ investigation is warranted to establish the facts. I also think that the legislature should examine President Teresa Sullivan's stewardship. pl



Billy Cosby has been critical of the conduct of some Black Americans for many years, here's an example:


'The desire to destroy the reputations of Southern schools like Duke, Washington and Lee, William and Mary, etc. is alive and well among the paladins of the left.'
And apparently with the full connivance of the faculties and administrations.


PL. I was baiting Tyler with a RURAL stereotype, not a Southern one. SBJB and Bubba are my cousins' diminutives, though they are not into dog fighting. Some do type; some don't.

All I see are myriad forms of pack behavior -- from fraternity boys (in general and it has ever been thus), to journalists (The Fair Game Game over the past 15 years***), to the Dragon Slaying Defenders of Womanhood, to the Global Village gossips with zero facts about what took place, but glad for another occasion of "passionate intensity."

Dogs, with and without pedigree, form packs and run down livestock. Men and women (!!!) express similar instincts metaphorically. The degree of disinhibition seems to depend less on restraint than on consequences.

What differs from the past 15-20 years is the RS response. Wonder what compelled them: principle, threat, or both? Remember the The American Spectator (another SMALL publication)? Did they ever retract ANYTHING - however false?


Yes, PL, I know. UVa also has (unless the bean counters have purged it) a wonderful course on antiquarian books.

And IIRC in the 90s was the go-to place for Old and Middle English texts.



Dogfighting is a black cultural thing, but the irony is you engaging in antiwhite agitprop in a thread about how antiwhite agitprop was used to great effect.

You should have said: "Sonny and Bubba are competing with illegal alien carpenters who the Tribe keeps insisting we import while talking about the sanctity of Israel's borders in another article."

For reference, Mike Vick should have faced the firing line for what he did to those dogs, but because he's a QB in America's opiate, its okay.



I think you're being willfully blind here IRT to how the media treats black on white crime vs (suspected) white on black. Look at the hammer attack in St. Louis on a white guy by blacks and Hispanics - memory holed. Google the Knoxville Horror if you want to read an absolutely atrocious case. We're still hearing about Emmett Till though, but that has been ignored because it doesn't play into the biases liberal reporters have.

Meanwhile the media had to invent a new racial category for George Zimmerman when he shot St. Trayvonius. There's definitely a narrative pushed by the MSM, that white blonde men are the most dangerous things in the country to everyone ever.

Meanwhile the actual statistics are rather...telling. Much like Phillip Chism rape murdering his teacher, what happened to Hannah Graham will be memory holed as well because it doesn't fit with the NE liberal mantra of "white racists rape killing black babies bodies".

If you want to ignore that there's a race war going on in America, go right ahead. But don't pretend here like there's no difference between Annapolis and Detroit.



Your hat fits just fine. I don't know why the clown car is being emptied out but don't want to hear these stories from women who claim that they were keeping company with a MARRIED man in the hope getting a leg up in an acting career, paying college tuition, or whatever!
IF, IF, IF, these claims have any truth, I'm offended that these women put themselves in this situation or that the parents of a fifteen year old pimped their child, THEN remained silent and allowed him to victimize others.
Until I see Barry Scheck come out with DNA evidence from Cosby they can STFU!
You're probably all aware that civil suits have now been filed. They couldn't go to the bank on an association with him years ago but they plan to do it now. They shouldn't get a penny.
Btw, while I've never met the man, there is a photo of Bill and my spouse on shelf in the family room and last night before some company came over he asked if he should take the photo down. LOLOLOL. I said no. I want DNA evidence and a video!!



Me neither... I'm a northern liberal to moderate leaning person and was schooled in a university in Alabama.



It is a story of a seventeen year old girl who is handed a green drink, a "house special" that almost immediately incapacitates her.

OMG! What a horrible story. Why, why would anyone take a drink or a pill from someone?!
Her parents failed in the pre-dating talk about what can happen.
I am glad that there in evidence in the Seccuro case to hold someone accountable. Still, don't put yourself in that situation and if something happens take action immediately. Rough justice or the court!



"Her parents failed in the pre-dating talk about what can happen." That is exactly what I said. pl

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