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09 December 2014

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shepherd

Before you lecture us, why don't you pay the proper respect to the victims. First step: get your numbers right.

FND

tv, we claim that our nation upholds inalienable rights. This issue is not much different than the warrantless mass surveillance of the NSA. They can always find yes lawyers to claim its legal, but we can all, even non-lawyers, read the constitution ourselves. Warrantless mass surveillance clearly violates the 4th amendment. Likewise, cruel and unusual punishment violates the 8th amendment. And your cute characterization of a few terrorists having water thrown in their faces is far from the extent of the violations of the highest law of our country.

Those who approved it are criminals. And even those who executed it, and even though they were order to do so, are also criminals if it could be proven that they read and understood the constitution, which they took an oath to defend, and yet they violated it anyway.

This is how it always starts. Its a special time, an emergency, its for our safety, etc. etc. But the emergency never seems to end. And who knows what future government we may get? And who knows who may be considered an enemy of the state? Its a dangerous thing for the government to be doing such things, especially in secret. I believe their objections to the release of the report had nothing to do with fears of islamist reprisals. It was a fear of us, the American population, and our disgust of what they have done. And how much more violent can the islamists get anyway, given their videos of beheadings and mass executions of their enemies? Its patently absurd.

Origin

Not shunned, Jailed. Especially Hayden. They knew and know it was a crime and they made our nation commit a moral crime by their acts. We have a treaty and a moral obligation to prosecute them. We won't. Since the US will not, perhaps they will travel abroad to be prosecuted by some country that believes in law and decency.

Origin

The disintegration of law. No freedom can long exist without a law abiding state to support and protect it. The torturers commit a crime against the very foundation of that which supports freedom--Law.

Pete Deer

"2,753 people died at the WTC on Sept. 11, 2001.
Many jumped to avoid being burned alive.
A couple of terrorists had water thrown in their faces or were subjected to loud music.

What's worse?"

Listening to people like you justify what we've done in the name of the dead.

Pete

Fred

tv,

I'm sure some of the guys lynched in America's past were actually rapists or murders too. What is worse is abandoning one's values because someone else is a savage.

Cee

tv,

Ah, many of those tortured had NOTHING to do with those attacks and were sold by the feuding Afghan tribes into captivity for cash. YOUR CASH! Well spent?

Secondly, those clowns tortured some informants!

http://www.blacklistednews.com/Oops%3A_The_CIA_mistakenly_tortured_its_own_informants/39802/0/38/38/Y/M.html

Cee

the beaver,

3.The good Leaders in Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Mauritania, Djibouti, must have made $$$$ off the CIA for being the torturers

Of course they did and when they have to face judgement, so be it!

I noticed that Rumsfeld was running around south of our border and was rebuffed. They were having no part in this barbarism.

dilbert dogbert

When the story of Abu Ghrabe and the photos came out it was like a kick in the stomach. The words: "We Lost" popped into my head.
When I read the president was kept in the dark, the words: "Credible Denial" popped into my head.

turcopolier

All

It will take me a day or two to assimilate this in a post. pl

Bobo

May God rest their souls as they had no part in what was revealed today. We as a country have allowed a few to turn us into nothing different than the dogs who flew those planes or planned those heinous acts.
History was made today, good history, as a cleansing was needed which hopefully will make us better for tomorrow.
Even McCain was lucid today, a good sign.

Karamanos

Impeachment is only an option for current office holders.

centercut

Take all the time you need. We would rather it done well than done fast.

Chantose

tv:
"2,753 people died at the WTC on Sept. 11, 2001.
Many jumped to avoid being burned alive.
A couple of terrorists had water thrown in their faces or were subjected to loud music.
What's worse?"

Neither.

Of course, "A couple of terrorists had water thrown in their faces or were subjected to loud music" is a vilely disingenuous way to refer to what we are really speaking of here.

Laura Wilson

Dilbert…it is easy to keep the incurious dolt in the dark. We are all demeaned by the actions of some and by the inactions of others. They are all traitors to the national interest.

These are dark times.

William R. Cumming

Agree and it would be of interest to know of the Bush-Saudi relationship in more detail!

sixpacksongs

Apologies for the multiple links.

From The Intercept live coverage on the 9th (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/09/live-coverage-release-senate-torture-report/):

"Torture used to extract false information to justify Iraq War
Buried in footnote 857 of the report is this remarkable account of how the CIA rendered a detainee to an unknown country, had him tortured, and then used the false information he provided about Saddam’s WMDs and “alliance” with al Qaeda to justify the U.S. attack, including information used by Colin Powell at his notorious 2003 U.N. speech (via Sam Husseini)(https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/542435002420432898)"

Win/win for folks like tv, I guess.

A lot of the conduct described in the report, especially as noted at Andrew Sullivan's extensive coverage (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/09/live-blogging-the-torture-report/) resulted in paydays for hangmen and jailers. US soldiers during our Phillipines occupation, post-WWII Europe and Japan, police officers here in the US - all have faced either prison or the noose for these and similar acts, or the authorization of such. I guess this isn't our father's country anymore, since it seems no one will actually face US justice over all this. We've officially joined the ranks of the rogue nations.

Cheers, I guess -
sixpacksongs

HankP

tv -

It always starts with people that everyone hates, but it never ends with them.

AEL

There are many who would have preferred that this report never see daylight. They lost.

Know hope.

If you ever meet Daniel Jones or any of the other authors of this report, I suggest you buy them a beer. The rest of their lives will not be easy.

Dubhaltach

Colonel do you remember the fate of Privates Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker?

The rape and murder of an underage girl by Stephen Greene an American soldier was causing fury in Irak and in fact Menchaca and Tucker's murderers cited Greene's behaviour as justification for what they did to Menchaca and Tucker.

My memory is that Menchaca and Tucker's murderers used the same word that would be used to describe slaughtering livestock to describe what they did but I'm open to correction on that.

As well as Greene's actions there were at the time widespread reports of torture of Iraki civilians at the hands of U.S. armed forces, and of torture and murder of civilians by GOI forces attached both to the regular Iraki army and the Interior Ministry.

The CIA torture programme together with what went on in Abu Ghraib and the reports of systematic torture of prisoners in Bagram Air Base mean that any barbaric swine can do the same or worse to any captured American and claim that this is no worse than what the Americans do. A lot of people in the Middle East and South Asia will agree with that.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that not only is torture wrong but that such atrocities breed counter-atrocities. I shouldn't have add but will that every American serviceman or officer I met at the time was appalled, genuinely morally outraged, when reports of Americans torturing prisoners were substantiated. Yet those are the very people who will pay a dreadful price if they're unfortunate enough to be captured.

Leaving aside all moral and legal considerations surely somewhere in the bowels of American government there surely exists a dictionary that explains the meaning of the word "reciprocity"?

Dubhaltach

confusedponderer

Walrus,
I share wholeheartedly your problem with my sentiments regarding American shamless and shameful torture policy being largely unprintable.

It is a disgrace that none of those who were responsible were held responsible.

As lawyers, they went to work like a Mafia consigliere would, with a subversive and hostile attitude to the law. A disgrace for the profession.

In cases involving money laundering and tax evasion, comparable conduct gets lawyers disbarred and sent to jail for aiding and abeting. Not so with torture. Bybee became a federal Judge, Yoo and Gonzales became law professors. Etc. pp. Today one sees these perps as experts on TV again.

And I won't ever forget the spectacle of the 2008 Republican presidential candidates with the exception of Ron Paul and a lukewarm John McCain falling over themselves cravenly out-enthusing each other on just how much they like torture, to the applause of about everything rightwing in the US. A nadir in American politics.

The US yet to have to live up to the basic insight that you are what you do, not what you say. You torture, you are a torturer, even if you euphemistically call it 'enhanced interrogation'.

Andrew Sullivan made that point well in his excellent artivcle at the Atlantic on 'Verschärfte Vernehmung'.

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-vernehmung/228158/

"The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner.
...
What I am reporting is a simple empirical fact: the interrogation methods approved and defended by this president are not new. Many have been used in the past. The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

rjj

What's worse, tv?

The onanistic self-righteousness that you share with both sets of perpetrators.

rjj

It is worse because it justifies and enables such actions.

bth

In the discussion we should remember that the CIA surreptitiously went into the Senate committee investigating the torture and tampered with records. http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/11/politics/senate-cia/ At what point has the agency detached from civil authority?

Also we should remember that Abu Ghrabe was, to my knowledge, an army program, not CIA, and the leadership was also not held to account. In Vietnam Tet was the turning point in world opinion and in Iraq it was Abu Ghrabe.

alba etie

All
I view what we did at the black sites as war crimes- specifically the prohibition of nations at War committing torture against captured prisoners . These United States did sign the Geneva Convention - that prohibits water boarding for example . Is my view correct that the USA committed war crimes by sanctioning torture at the black sites , and any nation that hosted the black sites such as Thailand or Poland also committed war crimes?

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