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25 August 2014

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TheManWithPlan

Sorry, after 9/11 those people aren't really called 'Prisoners of War' but 'Enemy Combatants'. The term was coined precisely so that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply.

Like in Guantanamo.

TheManWithPlan

What's with the censorship?

turcopolier

All

I must stress that this it is a specific crime under the international law of war to treat PWs this way and I don't care in the least what Cheney did. He should be tried for his actions and policies. pl

turcopolier

TMWP

This is my site and I censor you when I think it justified. pl

TheManWithPlan

@t
10-4 about "your property" thing. Though it seems a bit off since you invite people to comment, and I DID obey the rules you've set up...so seems rather hypocritical to bring that point up.

Oh, and I (quite strongly indeed!) agree about the treatment of prisoners thing too (though on a different level, not because of the Geneva Convention - a point I'd rather not go into atm)

One other thing...
My first comment isn't about what I stand/standnot for, no, I was merely illustrating the hypocrisy in today's world.

turcopolier

TMWP

I did not offer you an unlimited right to comment. If you send me another snotty comment like the last I will ban you. pl

TheManWithPlan

Anyway - it's a great site, and I'm thankful for your work.
One can only hope that more people read sites such as yours, rather than the MSM propaganda.
Sorry if I came across rude...

kao_hsien_chih

Seems like Soviet style propaganda from WW2 with PoWs as props that I heard about. The more I read about the goings on in Ukrain, the more unpleasant both sides seem to me.

TheManWithPlan

Oh, OK.
I'll refrain from commenting from now on.
Take care. Still think you're doing a great job, and I thank you for that.

Cheers.

All best!

mistah charley, ph.d.

Reply to Margaret Steinfels

I share your hope that decapitations are not planned.

Robert Parry of Consortium News comments on the NY Times story - the headline summarizes his major point:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/25/selective-outrage-over-ukraine-pows/

turcopolier

TMWP

A modicum of politeness would insure your status here. pl

Chicoreajackson

"Is this any way to conduct an insurrection?"

The question is a bit silly since insurrections are not conducted by official armies and therefore could care less about the Geneva Conventions. The proper question would be "Is this any way to conduct a war?".

In terms of international PR, its a bad idea as this post demonstrates. In terms of internal propaganda, and to humiliate the Ukrainians, its pretty effective. And since the Ukrainians have violated the Geneva Convention ad nauseum, including torturing journalists and posting the videos on youtube, white phosphorus shelling of cities, asking the rebels to adhere to "proper war rules" is a bit of a stretch.

IMO, bringing up American violations of the Geneva Conventions is not besides the point, since they back the Ukranians 100%, and its not something that Cheney initiated, he only legalized it under American law. In other words, these principles either apply to all or not at all.

Also quoting the NYT these days retracts credibility instead of adding to it, unless you are a liberal I guess, of which there are not many who view this site. Were the prisoners really pelted with beer cans and wearing filthy smelly rags? Since there are not photos of it on the NYT article, then probably not. The photos available elsewhere show the uniforms in decent shape. The videos available do show people yelling at them, but nothing thrown, eggs, cans or anything else.

turcopolier

chicoreajackson

I find your attitude really repulsive and I have fought some tough people many of whom were not members of any army. what you want in a simple minded savage way is a Hobbesian chaos. pl

TheManWithPlan

I guess I did in fact come across rude and snotty than.
My apologies.
Will still be reading this site, and am still thankful for the great work that you do.

Cheers

Charles I

I'm the resident bleeding heart liberal but they're working on curing me of my delusions mostly by references counterpoising my beliefs with other's blood.


Cheers you guys, been preternaturally busy up here at the Work Less Party.

Chicoreajackson

Hobbesian chaos is exactly what we have, not what I want. The USA messed up any illusion respect to to these war rules during the Bush era, when they publicly stated they do not apply to them. BTW no army has ever respected the Geneva conventions in any war. Please mention one who has. War is ugly, there is not way around this, and the Geneva Conventions, while a nobel idea have never worked to curb war atrocities and never will. These rules apply only to the victors, as history has shown. And there is no such thing as a humane way to conduct war.

Margaret Steinfels

The photo now posted (thank you, Colonel Lang) at the top ran with the Times article. I am honing my skills and haven't figured the photo thing out yet.

In any cased, "fetid" doesn't show up in photos. Only your nose knows when it walks by. Presumably the reporter's nose knew!

Medicine Man

Charles I,

I may be only a step or two behind you. There is lots of shallow thinking on the Left regarding the situation in the Ukraine. Way too many otherwise smart people who are perfectly willing to swallow the party line this time.

turcopolier

chicoreajackson

Nah! War crimes are committed but if they are prosecuted you cannot hold an army responsible for the actions of individuals. pl

Cee

All,

We can blame the people who started this but the pro-Russians have to adhere to the LAW. What they are doing is illegal and sickening!!

I don't know if anyone else posted any thoughts from Robert Parry

What Neocons Want from Ukraine Crisis
March 2, 2014

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/02/what-neocons-want-from-ukraine-crisis/

David Habakkuk

All,

I do not want to get emotional about this, but the parade in Donetsk was -- as I knew already, and anyone else could have found out with the quickest of Google searches -- an allusion to the march of German prisoners through Moscow on 17 July 1944.

This was a celebration of the success of 'Operation Bagration'. It was both a decisive point in the defeat of the German attempt to turn the Slavs into a race of 'untermenschen', the decisive defeat of Army Group Center, and also an offensive which took pressure off the Allied amphibious asssault on Normany, which, I assume everyone here will recall, took place very shortly before.

My quick Google search turned up a selection of photographs, together with a commentary, which included the following explanation:

'Operation Bagration – the Soviet destruction of German Army Group Center – was, arguably, the single most successful military action of the entire war. This vital Soviet offensive was launched just after Allied troops had landed in Normandy, and it is symptomatic of the lack of public knowledge about the war in the East that whilst almost everyone has heard of D-Day, few people other than specialist historians know much about Operation Bagration. Yet the sheer size of Bagration dwarfs that of D-Day. Operation Bagration (named after a Georgian hero in the war against Napoleon 130 years earlier) was not just one of the largest military offensives of the war, it was one of the most sophisticated. On 19 June 1944, Red Army partisan units, operating behind German lines, attacked transport and other Wehrmacht supply lines; two days later the Soviets launched massive air attacks; and then on the 23rd (one day after the third anniversary of the German invasion) the Red Army moved forward under cover of darkness.'

(See rarehistoricalphotos.com/german-prisoners-march-moscow-defeat-belarus-operation-bagration-17-july-1944/ .)

Of course, in a world where the British Prime Minister believes that his country was the 'junior partner' to the United States in 1940, it is difficult to expect that many people in 'the West' will have even the most elementary knowledge of what happened on the Eastern Front in 1941-5.

However it seems likely that some people in Donetsk still do.

Haralambos

Col. Lang,
I believe that, in addition to being a crime, the parading of the captured soldiers in such conditions was a terrible mistake and very poor judgement in terms of propaganda or public relations, whatever term fits. Had they been shown cleaned up and dressed in whatever the Geneva Conventions prescribe for wardrobe for the world to see in a context where they were not being humiliated, the rebels would have given their cause greater international credibility. I realize the situation in terms of chain of command and clarity of situation on both sides is very tenuous.

Margaret Steinfels

Thanks to this site, consortiumnews; anti-war; (even the Saker in small doses) is part of my regular reading. Much to learn! Much to question!

The NYTimes is not a favorite here I know. And I confess in our household I rant and rave every morning about something they get wrong. But consider (even if you're not a leftie!) that the Times has had reporters in Kiev, Donetsk, Luhansk and in the Donetsk in Russia pretty much throughout the troubles. They even had a reporter, Sabrina Tavernise, nearby when Malaysian MH17 went down; Times readers know a good deal about the scene on the ground because of her reporting (forebear making this part of the conspiracy!). Those of us thousands of mile from all the events discussed here are dependent on many sources! And why not?

turcopolier

David Habakkuk

I AM emotional about this and have personally intervened in situations like this to stop this filthy behavior. pl

Robert44

I was going to post but you said it all Chico. Thanks for saving me the time:-)

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