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06 August 2014


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Here's something to think about:
Hamas gets their way.
Israel ceases to exist and ALL the Jews leave the Middle East.
Will Palestine suddenly become a Jeffersonian democracy?
Will Palestine become a fount of innovation, science and education?
Will Hamas turn their guns and hatred on somebody else and keep right on killing?


But Hamas is evil.

If the US, heaven forbid, would sit at the same table wirth them they would legitimise these devils. People could end up thinking of them as humans in devil form. Worse, if Kerry was to shake hands with these devils, his utter American righteousness might accidentally rub off on, thus sainting them.

We can't have that. The only safe way out of this is for the US unconditionally supporting Bibi in bombing them.

ex-PFC Chuck

Something else to think about in your scenario: Where would the exiled Israelis then turn their guns and hatred? Which has killed a hell of a lot more Palestinians than vice versa.



Here's something to think about:
Israel gets their way.
Hamas ceases to exist and ALL the Palestinians leave the Middle East.
Will Israel suddenly become a Jeffersonian democracy?
Will Israel become a fount of innovation, science and education?
Will Israel turn their guns and hatred on somebody else and keep right on killing?

Lets go to a school in Gaza and ask the locals?


Yesterday, Scarborough also used the Ireland/IRA example in a discussion with the execrable Donny Deutsch. Deutsch kept clinging to the "Israel has to defend itself against missiles" theme and wouldn't listen. Scarborough was actually making sense and Deutsch would have nothing to do with Hamas. (Why this advertising exec keeps getting to talk about international affairs on national TV is beyond me. He really is clueless.)

Another point- Israel is an occupying power in Gaza and the West Bank- has been for decades. Under international law, it might be very difficult as an occupying power to use the 'national defense' theme when answering law of war violations.


you nare aware that Hamas has offered Israel a Hudna as a solution?

Israel can't have that because it won't meet their extensive demands.

Hamas is an answer to a local grievance, expressed in religious language. That grievance isk, first of all, having to live under Israell's thumb, with Israel arbitrarily lording it over them.

In fact, Hamas has been criticised by 'far enemy' Islamists for their local focus. They ain't ISIS, yet, and Israel has to be grateful for that.

The language often used by Islamists when they refer to the end of Israel doesn't mean they are going to kill all the Jews. They often use the crusades as a reference, and that, just like the Crusader states before, Israel will 'vanish from the page of time'. That actually is what Ahmedinejad's infamous (mis-)quote referred to.

There are alternatives to your scenario of Israel ceasing to exist outright:

What about granting the Palestinians equal status with Jews?

Now that would spell the end to Israel as a Jewish (only) state, but that isn't the end of the world, unless, of course, the zero-sum thinking that you express and that characterises Israel's thinking is lived by the Palestinains also.

Ah well, but what other just alternative is there?


Fred, you are just feeding the troll. Please ignore tv.

IMHO, the justice argument is dead end. Mr. Husain and the Colonel have put forth a reasonable proposal. The opening of Gaza to the world will make the "armed resistance" unnecessary.

Hopefully, the Palestinians (the PA) will be wise enough to know that UN administration is the only way to end the siege. The resistance rightly was/is fighting the siege. Once the ends, then the struggle (like Sinn Fein's) becomes political.


oofda: As you note, Israel's national security and a Secure Occupation are two different issues.

The beaver


"IMO such a force would have to be built around a core structure of Egyptians"

After reading the following articles from Joseph Massad:


and this one published backed in March ( sorry for x-posting on the Johnson's article thread)

2. http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/al-jazeera-once-again-removes-joseph-massad-article-palestine

I wonder whether the Palestinians, in particular Hamas will trust the Egyptian military personnel.


The Troubles in Northern Ireland were solved by a power sharing agreement.

In Israel-Palestine context, that would mean a One-State solution.

I don't see this happening, at least not in the near future.



Hamas didn't exist before Europe's gift from hell.

Here's uncle Moshe from the only "democracy":

1) Ultimatum: Israel’s prime minister should announce that Israel is about to attack military targets near population centers, and those uninvolved in the conflict who wish to remain safe should leave immediately. They should consider heading to Sinai, which is not far from Gaza. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. Hamas can prevent the attack by unconditionally surrendering.

2) Attack: The IDF should use maximum force with all the conventional means at its disposal as it attacks the entire “target bank” throughout the Gaza Strip. All the military and infrastructural targets would be attacked with no consideration for “human shields” or “environmental damage.” It suffices that we hit exact targets and that we give advance warning to the enemy.

3) Siege: It is time for a total military siege on Gaza. Nothing should enter the Gaza Strip. Israel, however, should allow exit from Gaza. As suggested earlier, civilians may go to Sinai while fighters may surrender to IDF forces.

more evil at the link, and please check the comments...lovely people I assure you!

Patrick D


This conflict and any potential resolution, or lack there of, is irrelevant to the interests of the United States.

The problem that needs to be resolved is that the United States is involved at all. The "special relationship" is a strategic liability to pursuing the relatively limited interests we have in the region and, increasingly, the rest of the world.

Medicine Man

TV -- Fortunately this is a false framing. There are far more outcomes than either "Hamas gets their way" or "Israel ethnically cleanses Palestine".



"I agree and IMO such a force would have to be built around a core structure of Egyptians. "

Although I also agree, I thought that the Egyptian military was traditionally loath to get involved in Gaza. Maybe things have changed after the recent upheavals?



IMO the Sisi government would want to participate in order to keep Hamas in line. pl


Col: and I would add that if the PA took back over Gaza, the so-called Arab support for Israel would shrivel.


If Israel gets its way and Palestinians totally surrender, could Israel continue to exist without the holocaust evoking threat of a barrage of harmless, supercharged fireworks?

A Jewish boss of mine once told me that Israel needs the external threat to provide the glue that binds Israelis together. Absent that, Israelis would tear each other apart--various groups of religious fundamentalists against the apostates.

IMO a Palestinian surrender is pointless, because the threat will continuously be invented and stoked. We will see this "mowing the grass" operation as a biennial event for the foreseeable future, regardless of anything Palestinians do.


Mon Colonel:

I get that you sort of like Sisi-- but, Khamas would be nutso-(they have no choice now, since they did not properly use their tunnels)- to sit with the Egyptian junta as mediators.

If I were the Egyptian military I wouldn't trust myself...

"...In 1995, a similar crisis broke out when some Israeli veterans said that they had executed Egyptian soldiers in the 1956 and 1967 wars. These disclosures led to the discovery of mass graves near the city of Al-Arish in the Sinai containing the remains of Egyptian civilians and POWs. Thousands of soldiers are still listed as missing from the quick and crushing defeat of 1967..."

How did the Egyptians react?

"... Cairo will be reluctant to press the issue because its political and diplomatic consequences could jeopardize Egypt's role as a peace mediator between Israel and the Palestinians, and also antagonize Washington. "Egypt and the U.S. have struck a back [channel] deal by which Egypt plays a regional role designed by the U.S. in return for casting a blind eye to the regime's domestic politics and practices..."


The Egyptian military is a business consortium/franchise opportunity (freeze dried ta'miyya for all). As for the Egyptian people they have bigger problems like how do you throw a revolution and come back with the same boss, same as the 'ol boss, but worse.

Perhaps not enough are catching (the mindshaping going on)- the commentary and questions of the media...yesterday alone I counted more than a dozen CNN allusions that Hamas uses "human shields"... Erin Burnett just kept on hissing it at state's Jen Psaki to confirm, which of course she blushingly obliged, along with 'they even do it with chickens".

I fear the fix is in, there will be "transfer and subjugation" zooner or laiter. With a lot of Israeli cigarette factories in free exchange zones dotted around for ze economic pleasure.

FB Ali

The imposition of an international observer force in Gaza depends on what else is included in the package deal.

Unless there is a significant easing of the Gaza siege, I do not think Hamas will agree to such a force coming in. (I agree their leverage is limited, but they have risked and lost enough to not care much about political and PR niceties).


"Unless there is a significant easing of the Gaza siege, I do not think Hamas will agree to such a force coming in"

And who in his right mind would agree to be Israel's jailor of Gaza, engendering the hostility of Gazans by implementing Israel's diktats, only to be shot at by the Izzies whenever found expedient at the IDF company level?

The suggestion is utterly rotten. Only a moron would accept.



I hate to disagree but when I (with no military experience) thinks about an international or any other outside force to get involved with madness they created, Lebanon comes to mind. Remember how that turned out for our soldiers?

The Israelis thought we were butting our noses in their business.Hmmmm, like the USS Liberty incident.



"you sort of like Sisi..." Mon cher petit ami a Quebec, there are few people that I like and he is not among them. I deal in interests, not emotional BS. BTW, it is "Hamas," not "Khamas." Are you Israeli? They seem incapable of understanding the difference between an aspirated "H" and the letter "Kha." This is strange because these two sounds exist in modern Hebrew. Similarly, the name "Ahmad" is pronounced with an aspirated "H" not "Kha." pl



There is no alternative. pl


1/3 Eyptian, 1/3 Qataris, 1/3 NATO



You do not understand. Unless there is such an observer/inspector group there will be no easing of the siege of Gaza. pl

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