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23 July 2014

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Seamus Padraig

Pat, that new BRICS bank must have put quite a scare into the neo-cons.

The Twisted Genius

pl,

No, no, no! You just don't understand. They're not lying. They're merely engaging in the thoroughly modern science of information operations. It's all a necessary part of our goal of full spectrum dominance.

Only someone still burdened by a quaint and old-fashioned sense of honesty and decency would refer to such "information managers" as no more than a pack of lying pig f#@kers.

FB Ali

For another "information manager" see the video of an interview with Mark Regev that Cee linked to on another thread.

Fair warning: don't see it while holding a glass or cup of tea; you'll spill it all over your lap while laughing your guts out.

At: http://tinyurl.com/mopexf6

The Twisted Genius

FB Ali,

That video is hilarious. Whoever created it is brilliant. My thanks to Cee for finding it. Jon Snow of Channel 4 also did a magnificent job of interviewing that bullshit artist.

jon

Col., what lies and fabrications are you referring to? In the quote above I see spin, I see a point of view, and I see rather few concrete facts. But I don't see a lie or a fabrication.

Has Russia played a role in the rebellion in eastern Ukraine? Yes they have. It is fair to say that they have had some level of influence over events there. Circumstances which seem material to the airliner being shot down. If not for the conflict, there would not have been a missile launcher in a field targeting a plane.

Does that level of involvement constitute a cassus belli with the US, I think not. In fact, I don't think the US has any national assets or commitments in Ukraine that require us to ally with Ukraine, or to commence hostilities with Russia directly. Others might make a claim, with similar accuracy, that the Israeli attack on Gaza is the fault of the US, since we have created conditions beneficial to that government, and are an active arms and military aid provider to them. Very few people, however, would consider the US an actual party to that conflict.

A rebel officer was interviewed today, and said that Russia had supplied rebels with SAMs, and is also providing weapons training of some description within rebel held areas. That officer did not say that it was a Russian supplied SAM that brought the plane down. Let us hope not.

Similarly, there have been no suggestions that there was any presence of Russians at the launch site or involved with any potential training of missile crew. I doubt any Russian under orders would have been within ten miles of that missile launcher. As for training, many people are trained by officers of other nations in many things. Unless the training explicitly contained methods for violating international law and killing civilians, I do not see how that would be inflammatory. A Russian at the launch site or involved in the target and launch sequence, particularly one in active service, would be a serious thing.

The statement quoted above, if anything, is less inflammatory that Pres. Putin's remarks yesterday, which were to the effect that the Ukrainian's had either attempted to bring the jet down themselves with an air to air missile, or that they were using a following plane to bait a fatal shot from a rebel missile ground battery.

I think we might rather feel some relief that the statement quoted represents a substantial climbdown for initial statements by Obama and Kerry, to the effect that the destruction of the plane was directly and exclusively Russia's fault. I too, would like the US to dial back its rhetoric. I would like it far better if the US would release some tangible data that would bolster many of the claims that they have made. All parties should release their data and information, so that we can rapidly establish the single, accurate record of what occurred.

Joe Freedom

"Was Hamas Democratically elected just a couple of years ago?". "Correct..."

Unlike the current Western backed government in Ukraine. Ten years and $5 billion didn't set the stage for anything though.

Kerim

Dear FB Ali,

Thank you for that video. And for the warning: I couldn't stop laughing.
If only this were not so very sad...

turcopolier

jon

"Does that level of involvement constitute a cassus belli with the US, I think not." The US Government is building a frenzy in the US that points towards war with Russia. To that end they have distorted limited evidence and drawn unjustified conclusions. I call that lies. pl

Babak Makkinejad

I wonder if Mrs. Nuland is happy with what she has helped wrought; specially the destroyed lives on the air and on the ground.

I suppose she is going to write a book soon and continuing with her middle class suburban life while others are doing all the dying.

Babak Makkinejad

All:

There is nothing funny about what FB Ali has posted - it validates again what Confucius stated 2500 years ago - the first step in restoring order in a Realm is to restore the Language.

fred

Jon,

Relief? Not all the press thinks Obama's conduct is bringing 'relief'.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/23/crowley-the-good-time-president/?page=2

Please let me know what you find provocative about President Putin's remarks - which you conveniently failed to provide a link to.
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/22701

Bandolero

All

Robert Parry seems to have taken that briefing by anonymous top US intel officials to select journos with some subtile black humor. As he now put out the information that he "was told that U.S. intelligence analysts were examining satellite imagery that showed the crew manning the suspected missile battery wearing what looked like Ukrainian army uniforms" he puts it now this way - quote:

The Los Angeles Times article on Tuesday’s briefing seemed to address the same information this way: “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”

That statement about a possible “defector” might explain why some analysts thought they saw soldiers in Ukrainian army uniforms tending to the missile battery in eastern Ukraine. But there is another obvious explanation that the U.S. intelligence community seems unwilling to accept: that the missile may have been launched by someone working for the Ukrainian military.

Source:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/

The picture added to the article by Robert Parry I also find enlightening.

Anna-Marina

Goebbels' spiritual heirs, sorry to say.

Anna-Marina

"I would like it far better if the US would release some tangible data that would bolster many of the claims that they have made."
Do you have any thoughts on why the US government is so sure about Putin guilt re MH17 but does not want to release the satellite data that could either prove or disprove the US government certainty?
Another food for thought is the secret visit to Kiev of the CIA Director Brennar at a very delicate time of installment of the unelected government approved by the US State department. The State dept. favorites included some very wealthy persons and neonazi-leaning folks. The US favoritism towards Ukrainian neonazis is a horrific insult to the people of the Russian Federation and to the memory of the millions perished in the WWII.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hidden-agenda-of-cia-director-brennans-trip-to-kiev-initiate-the-use-of-force-in-eastern-ukraine/5378263

jon

Thank you. It seems we have different lines as to where a lie begins. I won't ask you to accept my placement. The US is certainly presenting what the government takes as true, and pushing on that information as hard as they can, in order to make the best case available. In that process, not much of the original shape remains. But I see Russia pushing their interpretation of the data to equal, if not more ludicrous extents. So many tenuous trial balloons floated. Neither is helpful. Russia has said some very specific and helpful things, it has presented some data, and it has pledged to help compel the rebels to be cooperative. The US might try some of that with the Ukraine.

I think the US government is genuinely irate over the actions of Russia in the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, and consider them well beyond the accepted bounds for the behavior of nations. This may well be fueling earlier statements that were very provocative, and seemed to go well beyond any available facts. As many feared during the breakup of Yugoslavia, shooting down ML17 had enormous risk of transforming a regional squabble among cousins into something that could engulf Europe.

Further, I don't think the US government is trying to bring war about, or our entry into the current conflict. The drums certainly aren't beating as they were before Iraq. I am not noticing a frenzy building, but I don't watch cable news. Obama also showed in Syria that he does not have to have a military solution to every problem. If the US has some evidence of direct Russian involvement, they seem in no rush to reveal it. However, they are not helping matters by not releasing more than the slightest scraps of information relating to the downing. I don't see the advantage of holding every card so closely.

Where we may agree, I hope, is that the State Department needs a good cleaning out People who can do a professional job of monitoring and working with other countries and regions, create sound analysis, and offer productive tactics and strategies brought in. Obama also seems in need of better national security advising. Obama and Kerry also need to learn to speak on formal, substantive occasions as befits a head of state, and as the head of a Cabinet office. Their ill-judged, imprecise statements can bring much mischief.

Anna-Marina

This is interesting:
"A chessboard drenched in blood" by Pepe Escobar
"Russia had - and has - a full spectrum surveillance, on everything going on in Ukraine. And so, arguably, does NATO. What the Russian Ministry of Defense is saying is as important as the clues it is laying out for experts to follow.
The damaged MH17 starboard jet engine suggests a shape charge from an air-to-air missile - and not a Buk; that's consistent with the Russian Ministry of Defense presentation graphically highlighting an Ukrainian SU-25 shadowing MH17... Not to mention, again, that not a single eyewitness saw the very graphic, thick missile trace that would have been clearly visible had a Buk been used."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-230714.html

jon

Since you ask, Fred: I give Crowley's column no credence. She can say what she likes. Her remarks essentially concern troll Obama for not behaving precisely as she thinks he should at this moment. Then she gets insidery gossipy. Did she ever write similar columns about George W. Bush, his never ending vacations, his unbreakable exercise routine, his disinclination to read or discuss? How did she feel about the nuances of Bush's reactions upon learning of 9-11? If she has tarred with the same brush, I will reconsider my opinion.

Putin's remarks are precisely what I would expect and hope for from a head of state in these sorts of circumstances. And Russia is acting on they they have said they would do. I applaud that. I have complimented those remarks before. Obama's remarks and demeanor in his similar statement do not compare well at all. Putin however, has made other remarks, of a less formal nature, that seem to have much different tone and import. Obama's subsequent remarks have not improved greatly on his initial statement.

BTW, I haven't 'conveniently' failed to provide a link. I did not provide a link, nor did I offer one. I look at a lot of things and do a lot of things, and I am no one's recording secretary. I am not using obscure sources. This information is readily available, and I find that people trust and value more the information they have worked to gather themselves. Besides your efforts may uncover other valuable information that we can all benefit from.


I found remarks of Putin's, which you conveniently failed to provide a link to, expanding on the purpose of a purported Ukrainian SU-25 tailing ML777 to be of a much more provocative nature. In describing what he said was shown on a radar image, he essentially said (as I have said elsewhere) that the Ukrainian government had sent up an armed fighter to trail and attack ML17, in order to cause it to fall on rebel territory, so that the rebels could be blamed. That is a very provocative statement - though, as noted, it was not delivered in that manner at all. Still, the import was more than clear.

Once it became abundantly clear that the attack scenario advanced would not stand, another straw man justification was brought out. This time, the fighter was shadowing the jet, in order to lure the rebels into a poorly judged missile launch, which would then (somehow) inevitably strike ML17, causing it to fall on rebel territory and for the rebels to be blamed. Pure genius. And I have discussed that elsewhere previously. I do not believe Putin was involve with the floating of this later variant.

turcopolier

jon
It does not matter if the USG believes the product of its BS group think. It is still BS and it is driving the two principal nuclear powers toward war. I suppose one should ask how much the media firestorm about Russia is a distraction over Gaza. pl

Castellio

Please watch this. You have to get through the advertisement first, but it really is worthwhile. For once, at least once, by this one clear and brave spokesperson, the truth of gaza managed to get out on public television in Canada.

I found myself so moved: not by the facts which we've all known for so long, but simply for hearing them spoken out loud.

It is moving, the truth when heard in public.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=402990

LJ

jon, regarding "the rebel officer" you reference, here is link that dials back his credibility.

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/07/reuters-interviews-benedict-arnold-rebels-had-buk-downed-mh17.html

Macgupta123

As Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT) pretty much admitted on Chris Hayes' show on MSNBC this evening, it doesn't really matter what the truth is. "It doesn't matter in the end who pulled the trigger...", etc.
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in-with-chris-hayes/watch/break-in-the-case-of-who-shot-down-mh17-311924291903

different clue

FB Ali,

I clicked the link and just got a blank facebook page. So I handtyped the URL and got the same blank facebook page. Could it be because I do zero facebooking and therefor have no
facebook account? If so, is there a way to free that URL from behind the facebook paywall?

different clue

Jon,

Why should I (or anyone) believe that our governators and/or their spokesclones even believe
within their own minds that there is any truth to this?

Maybe the governators are not so filled with nihilistic hatred for life and love as to actively pursue a nuclear war with Russia. Maybe they just want to set off a Cold War 2.0 in order to re-impose strict social discipline upon the Euro/US public in order to get ready for the rising discontent that accompanies falling resources and consumer wealth. Perhaps they are just planning ahead to manage and contain the coming Revolution of Falling Expectations which they foresee dead ahead.

skuppers

Jon -
your argumentation is facile, specious, and utterly disingenuous.
Here's just one example: "I think the US government is genuinely irate over the actions of Russia in the Crimea and eastern Ukraine, and consider them well beyond the accepted bounds for the behavior of nations." You really do, huh? This while the USG is funding/arming liver-eating freaks in Syria in an attempt to destroy that country; this while the USG invaded and destroyed Iraq over invented intelligence; and this while the USG orchestrated a coup in Ukraine, put Nazis in power, and then supports a punitive operation/terror campaign against the eastern oblasts of that country that daily kills, intentionally, scores of civilians?

JerseyJeffersonian

Jon

If the "rebel leader" interviewed to which you refer was one Alexander Khodakovsky, you might be well advised to take the veracity of his reports with a grain of salt. His loyalties to the Novorussian separatist cause have come under strong suspicion. See this post at Moon of Alabama, for instance, noting the links provided within for further background:

http://moonofalabama.org/2014/07/reuters-interviews-benedict-arnold-rebels-had-buk-downed-mh17.html

(My tablet is misbehaving, & won't let me cut & paste an address in the right place, so that may not be a hot link. If not, copy it & paste it yourself, or just go to MoA & find the post.)

Jon, you are getting pushback from others for not supplying links to materials that are the foundations of your analysis & interpretations, a common expectation on the Intertubes. You will note that Col. Lang supples links to posts that inform his analysis. Analogize this practice with the conventions of scholarship mandate the provision of footnotes & citations; these are de rigeur if you wish to be taken seriously

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