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21 July 2014

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robt willmann

These are allegedly 10 questions that Russia has for the present puppet government in Ukraine regarding the Malaysian airliner flight MH17. However, since I do not know how to read the Russian language, I have no idea if it is so--

http://www.mid.ru/bdomp/brp_4.nsf/sps/26477D378C0E55A444257D1C00442BF0

And here is a presentation by what is probably the Russian Defense Ministry with translation done after each short period of speech--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo

And an article from the English version of Russia Today--

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Nighthawk

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

Fred

So did any of the flight MH17 take any photos of the aircraft in the vicinity? No wonder everyone wants to collect the 'evidence'.

Was there any inflight internet access on this craft as in common on a number of other comercial air liners? If so what was being passed on to passenger social media accounts?

Kunuri

I got to know a few Ukranians as well as Russians over the years, men and women, they would not drink beer to get drunk, and if they did drink beer they will be embarassed to get drunk drinking beer. Maybe they were brown vodka bottles. Did anybody here ever experienced a drinking bout with Russians, or Ukranians? They löse little of their senses even seemingly drunk. So what are they suggesting, drunk Ukranians or Russians are less effective? Or more trigger happy? I smell propoganda, on just this point for sure.

David Habakkuk

All,

As I have said before, I remain agnostic about what happened to the Malaysian plane.

However, it now seems crystal clear that a genuinely independent inquiry into what happened to it is urgently required. A major factor in assessing the credibility of the claims made on different sides is clearly going to be the degree of their enthusiasm for seeing such an inquiry instituted.

Without wanting to prejudge the results of such an inquiry, one point I think needs to be stressed.

If it turns out that the claims made by Parry and the Russsians stand up, this is an historic moment.

It would establish that the pervasive moral corruption among Western elites has put us in danger of catastrophic escalation twice within a year.

Augustin L


@ Kunuri, western ukrainians (ukraine is a fiction, never was a country before it's creation by the german general staff) don't want to be russians anymore. They want to be ''europeans'', hence they have now started to drink beer. One of the head honchos of the regime Klitschko is a beer baron. His company is selling beer in Poland,Germany(mostly)and of course the Ukraine. Who know ? He probably gets preferential status to sell directly to the armed forces like the other oligarchs.

Cheers.

Bill

I don't have any information to add, but are our satellites actually able to see "beer bottles scattered around"? That sounds more like made-for-TV drama level of technology.

turcopolier

Bill

The claim for that level of resolution is unrealistic. pl

Allen Thomson

> are our satellites actually able to see "beer bottles scattered around"?

The general consensus in the unclassified world is that NRO's Finest have a best resolution of about 7 centimeters/3 inches under optimum circumstances (nadir view from perigee, benign atmospheric conditions). So an 8-inch high, 2.5 inch diameter beer bottle lying on its side on an adequately contrasty surface would show up as an oblong blob of about the right dimensions. Enough to make a reasonable inference but not a definitive identification.

oofda

I wondered about that, about the ability to see bottles on the ground. I never have seen such a level of resolution.

And Kunri, beer is getting more popular in Russia and Ukraine- especially as the quality improves. Twenty years ago Russian beer was awful- it has improved, with European brewing assistance.

Dismayed

hypothesis - Could be that the imagery was from a high-altitude drone, and the source didn't want to go as far as suggesting that we might have USG assets inside Ukraine/Novorossiya airspace supporting Ukrainian Army combat operations. I've taken for granted that we have supported them with intelligence in every way possible from the beginning, separatist troop movements, keeping tabs on comms of Ukrainian army officers to detect any movement toward coup, etc.

Anna-Marina

Here is a rough translation:
1. Власти Украины сразу же определили ополченцев, как виновников трагедии. Что лежит в основе таких выводов?
The ruling regime in Ukraine had immediately designated the [East Ukrainian] volunteers as guilty part of the tragedy. What is the basis for such conclusions?
2. Может ли официальный Киев сообщить все детали использования установок «Бук» в районе боевых действий? Главное - зачем эти системы там развернуты, поскольку у ополченцев нет самолетов?
Can the Kievan officials inform about the details of their use of the military installations “Buk” in the area of active military actions. Most important – for what reason these systems [Buk] have been placed there, considering that the volunteers do not have any planes?
3. Каковы причины бездействия украинских властей по формированию международной комиссии? Когда такая комиссия начнет работать?
What is the reason for inaction of the Ukrainian government with regard to formation of an international committee [to investigate the tragedy of MH17]? When will such committee start working?
4. Готовы ли представители вооруженных сил Украины предъявить международным экспертам документы по учету ракет класса воздух-воздух и земля-воздух и боекомплектов зенитно-ракетных комплексов?
Are the representatives of the Ukrainian army ready to submit documentation according to the account of the air-land and land-air rockets and of the ammunition of the anti-aircraft missile complexes for international experts?
5. Будут ли данные средств объективного контроля о перемещениях самолетов ВВС Украины в день трагедии предъявлены международной комиссии?
Will the data on the impartial control over transit of military Ukrainian planes on the day of the tragedy be submitted to an international committee?
6. Почему украинские авиадиспетчеры допустили отклонение маршрута самолета к северу в сторону «зоны антитеррористической операции»?
How come that Ukrainian dispatchers had allowed the deviation of the plane [MH17]from its route, towards the north, into the zone of “anti-terrorist operation?”
7. Почему не было полностью закрыто для гражданских самолетов воздушное пространство над зоной боевых действий, тем более что в этом районе не существовало сплошного поля радиолокационных средств навигации?
For what reason the air space above the zone of military activity was not completely closed for all civilian planes, especially as there was no continuous field of radiolocation means of navigation?
8. Может ли официальный Киев прокомментировать сообщения в соцсетях, якобы от имени испанского авиадиспетчера, работающего на Украине, что сбитый над территорией Украины «Боинг» сопровождали два военных украинских самолета?
Could the Kievan government comment on the messages surfaced in social media and allegedly sent by a Spanish air-dispatcher working in Ukraine, that the plane, brought down over Ukraine, was accompanied by two Ukrainian planes?
9. Почему Служба безопасности Украины начала без международных представителей работу с записями переговоров украинских диспетчеров с экипажем «Боинга» и с данными украинских радаров?
Why the Ukrainian Security Services has started working with the recordings of communication between Ukrainian dispatchers and the Boing’s crew, and with the data from Ukrainian radars, without cooperating with international representatives?
10. Как были учтены уроки предыдущей аналогичной катастрофы российского Ту-154 в 2001 году над Черным морем? Тогда руководство Украины до последней минуты отрицало причастность Вооруженных сил страны к той трагедии, пока неопровержимые доказательства не выявили вину официального Киева.
How the lessons of a similar catastrophe over the Black Sea in 2001, which involved the Russian TU-154, were considered [by the Ukrainian government]? In 2001, Ukrainian government denied any involvement of the Ukrainian army in the tragedy, until the incontestable proofs made clear that the officials in Kiev were guilty.

PeterHug

Hmm...some former East Germans I used to work with had a saying - the Russian scientists all wear glasses because they don't stop drinking when they run out of ethanol, they just switch to methanol...

robt willmann

Thank you. What is the website that is posting the questions? Is it one from the Russian government?

Valissa

Thanks for translating! Those are all very good questions. I would be very much interested in hearing the answers to those.

My favorite is the second part of number 2: "Most important – for what reason these systems [Buk] have been placed there, considering that the volunteers do not have any planes?"

And I'm assuming by 'volunteers' he's referring to the rebels not having any planes.

Richard Hack

Interesting points from the Russian Defense Ministry press conference:

1) They spotted what appeared to be an SU-25 near MH17. Ukraine has a model of SU-25 that CAN reach that altitude despite Ukraine denials. Since the militia reported Ukraine jets "shadowing" commercial airliners at least a month ago, this is clearly likely. The Ukraine denied any jets in the area. What else did the jet do is the question...

2) The alleged "Russian" BUK missiles being moved video is actually of Ukraine BUK missiles.

3) Ukrainian BUK missiles were deployed in the area despite the militia having no aircraft for the Ukies to defend against. Arguing that they were there to defend against Russian jets is weak.

4) The US had a missile launch detection satellite right over the area of the crash at the moment of the crash. Obvious corollary questions follow...

pbj

The beer bottles seem like a ridiculous, almost comical detail. And if that image exists, why would it be released?

jon

These mainly seem to be productive useful questions that should be answered factually. Some of the questions are phrased to request answers that would benefit prior Russian positions, but that is to be expected. The last question is rather unhelpful and immaterial. This Ukrainian government is not the government that shot down the plane of Russian emigres to Israel over the Black Sea. The circumstances are also rather different, other than the regrettable nature of the outcome.

I would also ask all parties to supply a complete inventory of their respective missile batteries, including missile serial numbers, within 100 miles of the plane at the time it was brought down.

Allen Thomson


Baltika has been on the shelves here in San Antonio for a few years, and it's not bad.

jon

I find it rather difficult to believe that the Ukrainian military could infiltrate a Buk tracked missile vehicle dozens of miles behind rebel lines, intentionally fired the missile that destroyed the jet, from an area that seems to have abundant active rebel forces deployed, and then withdraw without notice or incident.

If anything, the Ukrainian national forces seem singularly inept, poorly trained, ill disciplined, and largely lacking in courage. They would be more likely to give the vehicle to the first rebel patrol they encountered as anything else. Maneuvering behind enemy lines for such a distance and successfully carrying out such a mission suggests an exceptionally well qualified outfit.

It would be vastly simpler for Ukrainian forces to shoot the plane down from a position outside rebel lines, and then blame the rebels, while the vehicle and its crew have ample opportunity to redeploy safely to the rear without any possibility of hindrance.

If the crew of the Buk was wearing Ukrainian national uniforms, might they not have been able to be captured in the same raid where the rebels claim to have captured at least one Buk? Changing into enemy uniforms for a few hours or days, in order to perpetrate a deception seems like a much easier task. And it might not have been undertaken as deception. It may just have been that captured uniforms were newer, fit better, more appropriate to the season, looked snappier or were just cleaner. The rebels do not have a single BDU outfit, distinct from Ukraine's.

It could also be that the possible identification of the uniforms from the satellite imagery is simply inconclusive or mistaken.

If rebel lines had been deeply penetrated, a SAM missile fired that was not from a rebel position, which then brought down a large plane, I would think that rebel forces would have immediately imitated a red ant nest that had just been stomped. Instead, we hear of communications between rebel forces, describing a missile fired and a large plane brought down. Those communications are then followed by other rebel communications describing first encounter of the crash site and the determination that it was a civilian flight, and not a suspected government plane. Shortly thereafter, rebels seems to have engaged in a scrubbing of all references to these events from their various internet presences, and we start to hear rebels positing theories of a plane full of western spies. Somewhat later, rebel forces deny access to the area to press, and are witnessed removing element of wreckage. Days later international crash investigators are denied access, have warning shot(s) fired in their vicinity, are provided restricted access, have crash evidence removed from their possession. There are also reports of a Buk being removed from the area of the downing by flatbed truck, at dawn the day following the downing, and headed towards the Russian frontier.

All of the above may be the well meaning efforts of rebels to do what they think best at any given moment. Rebel radio transmissions and internet posting could possibly be spoofed by Ukrainian or other parties to cast aspersions on the rebels. Perhaps the Russians are maintaining the removed Buk for forensic analysis. But, frankly, that's not at all what it looks like from where I sit.

Frankly, I would find it easier to believe that a bomb was hidden in the wing of the plane, next to an engine, at Schipol, and then remotely detonated so the wreckage would fall on rebel terrain. And I don't believe that for a moment.

Joe Freedom

jon,

You do a good job of repeating the innuendo that it is easier to believe the Ukrainian rebels shot this down rather than the Ukrainian government. How do you know where the rebels lines are? This isn't WW1 with trenches from border to border. Just how many troops do you think are in that area? Why is it difficult to believe someone drove a tracked vehicle twenty or thirty miles across open country, especially if they are uniformed exactly like the men in the region and speak the same language?

The Twisted Genius

jon,

Judging by your analysis and comments, I gather that you find it near inconceivable that the Ukrainian junta forces could have shot MH17 down intentionally or accidentally. To be fair, I find it very conceivable that either junta or rebel forces could have shot it down accidentally and just as conceivable that the junta forces shot it down intentionally.

Kiev is desperately trying to pin the blame on the rebels and the Russians. So far their efforts to offer proof have proved rather inept. The "smoking gun" video of rebel conversations was produced before MH17 was shot down and was pieced together from several conversations. The "smoking gun" video of the rebel BUK heading to Russia was shown to be filmed in junta controlled territory. This stinks of either cover up at best or false flag at worse.

Today's briefing by the Russian MOD offered commercial ATC radar images and satellite imagery to show a Ukrainian military aircraft (probably a SU-25B1) performing unusual maneuvers in the vicinity of MH17 just before it was shot down and the presence of several Ukrainian BUK systems in the same area. They didn't claim the Ukrainians shot down MH17 at this briefing, but they did demand explanations for these finding from the government in Kiev. In the next few days, we'll see if Kiev can rebut or explain Russia's findings or poke serious holes in the evidence. NATO or the U.S. have yet to offer comparable evidence.

Why do I think the junta in Kiev is capable of deliberately shooting down MH17? A majority of that government is from Svoboda and Pravy Sektor, right wing extremist groups with a virulent hatred for Russia and the rebels of Novorossiya. Kiev's military forces are now made largely of these right wing groups' paramilitary forces. They have had no problem killing hundreds of civilians in their efforts to exterminate the rebels. They are not a professional military force. I seriously doubt these right wing thugs would have any problem shooting down an airliner if it would further their mission to destroy the rebels.

confusedponderer

Mr. Lang,
"except that the resolution claimed in the imagery is unrealistic"

Would you consider it inconceivable that, if the US military had, say, imagery from other sources they rather kept secret, that they attributed it to satellites in order to 'wash' it?

MikeS

Early on, Col Jack Jacobs, CNN's military analyst, said that we would know the full details of this when the U.S. government told us, because the entire area has been heavily monitored by us in every respect, including, of course, high resolution imagery, I've been out of touch for a few days, but I don't believe that any approaching comprehensive data, has been released. Am I wrong? Where are the calls for the U.S. to furnish the data and information supporting its charges?

turcopolier

CP

I suppose you mean drone mounted imaging. That's possible but if it is the USG should disclose that. these systems are not very secret nor do they need to be. pl

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