Hello! The cops didn't check their data base at Isla Vista.

"Before a half-dozen sheriff’s deputies knocked on Elliot Rodger’s door last month in response to concerns raised by his mother about his well-being, they could have checked the database and discovered he had bought three 9mm semiautomatic handguns. Several law enforcement officials and legal experts on gun policy said this might have given deputies greater insight into Rodger’s intentions and his capability for doing harm."  Washpost

-----------------------------

It MIGHT have given them greater insight?

To review:   

- Rodger's three pistol purchases from three separate federally licensed firearms dealers were each separately subjected to an electronic federal firearms background sales check.  He passed all three because privacy concerns prevented the transmission of the record of his mental illness to state government and to federal government.

-  The three pistols had a clear chain of accountability from factory to wholesaler to dealer.  It has been suggested that they had been smuggled into California.  That was not the case.

- State law in California forbids private sales of handguns.  So much for the supposed "gunshow loophole" in California.

- California law requires a waiting period between sale and delivery.  That was accomplished in this case.

- California has created an electronic data base that records all firearms sales.  The federal fireams sales check is not a data base of ownership.  They say they destroy the record of the check after completion.  Do we believe this?  Maybe.  But this California data base retains the record of sale and so IS an effective register of ownership.

-  The Santa Barbara County sheriff's department had jurisdiction.  They were contacted by Rodger's parents who were concerned by signs of mental illness in him.  Six sheriff's deputies went to his Isla Vista apartment where he talked his way past their enquiry and they left.  They left him with his guns and ammunition.

- These deputies went on this "wellness call" without running Rodger's name and address through the state registry of sales.  Every one of these cops had an internet capable computer on his desk.  I would have thought that they would have made the instant check of the data base for self protection if nothing else.

- Rodger killed three people with a knife as well as the four (counting himself) that he killed with his pistols.   In the UK certain kinds of knives are prohibited.  Perhaps we should have knife control in the United States.

Some people think that AR-15s and semi-automatic handguns are military weapons that should not be availale to the general public.  1 - They are not military weapons.  They are just sexy looking black guns. There is nothing special about them and Rodger could have done just as much damage with a couple of .38 special revolvers.  (Look up what they are.)

"Gun Safety" advocates say they want universal background checks.  I would say that to make any such measures effective transparency to the data bases for mental illness treatment is necessary.

If that is a no go, then  some measure must be adopted that encourages cops to do their work properly.

Failing any of that, confiscation on the British, Canadian and Australian model will inevitably become the open goal of the anti-gun nuts.  pl  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/police-didnt-search-database-showing-calif-shooter-had-bought-guns/2014/05/30/59ad5186-e74f-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html?hpid=z4

Comments

[no one]

Sir, Like I said on the other thread, the cops blew it big time.

In other news, Sterling is suing the NBA for $1 billion.

[Tyler]

Some people will never realize that you cannot be swaddled in bubble wrap through life.

A gun confiscation would lead to "interesting times".

[Fred]

Did the police fail to follow SOP or did they not follow it at all? Where's the punditry on this one?

[John Minnerath]

Seems that, oddly enough, especially in a state like California, that it's up to the investigating officers weather or not to run the gun data base.
I bet that changes.

[kao_hsien_chih]

The price of little more security is a little less liberty...oh, wait!

[no one]

Tyler, Gun confiscation will not -cannot - happen outside of a few ultra liberal enclaves. Here in upstate NY local police, sheriffs and even the state police have not only commenced court action to undo Cuomo's/Bloomberg's SAFE Act, several high profile members of the organizations have publicly stated that they will not enforce that law. This includes the sheriff of the county that includes Buffalo.

This down state LE member sums it up pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uamEo4I2qPc

Who's going to come get our guns? The politicians themselves? Deputized volunteers from the ranks of the liberal elite?

[Tyler]

Man I wish I could be so sure but this country ain't the one I grew up in anymore. Trannies can now use female restrooms because of their feels and federal judges are making law from the bench overturning voter referendums while ordering bakers to bake cakes for gays or else.

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in a fever dream.

[Fred]

Meanwhile in Barack's home town:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-crime-betty-howard-murder-shooting-20140531,0,904372.story

[turcopolier]

tyler

I was 20 in 1960. Imagine how I feel. I am surrounded by humanoids who hardly seem human at all. pl

[Tyler]

Sir,

I literally cannot imagine how you must feel having seen what this country was and what it became. Every week seems to bring some new insanity.

[Tyler]

Well now that Tiny Dancer Emmanuel wants to video tape all gun purchases in order to make buying a gun super duper onerous, why I'm sure I'zzarion and Rafik will stop shooting each other.

What is it with the Jewry in America and their desire to take guns away from everyone else?

[The Twisted Genius]

This certainly looks like the sheriff's deputies just went through the motions of this "wellness check." Since it was the parents that initiated this inquiry, I would think the sheriff's office would treat this more seriously than a crank call. That firearms sales database seems like a terrific tool for California LE. Why would any officer not check it before a visit or a traffic stop? Can they also check for concealed carry permits. That would be a big help during a traffic stop or house visit. It would allow an officer to ask, "Sir, are you carrying a firearm right now?" It would prevent any misunderstandings. I know some who volunteer that information to an officer when stopped for the same reason.

[Tyler]

In California, CCW Permit Holders are identified when the police officer calls the LECA for a license/registration check.

[Bill H]

The Shreiffs not only had internet capable computers on their desks, they had them in their cars, and this incident proves the uselessness of the dtatbase desired by "safety advocates." It requires that police check the database before each interaction with the public and, since they did not do so in a case such as this one, they are not going to do sa pretty much at all. And I'm not sure I blame them.

"Just sit in your car, sir, I'll come arrest you in a minute when the computer comes back up."

[nick b]

Col.,

I had a little chuckle over your suggestion of 'knife control'. I can't speak for every state, but here in Pennsylvania the gun laws are far more clear than the knife laws. Technically knives are legal, but certain type are not (spring loaded, double edged, etc.) but the law reads any "offensive weapon...that can be used for bodily injury and serves no legal purpose" is illegal. This gives leaves a lot up to the discretion of local law enforcement. I own, and occasionally carry large knives. I also keep a hammer poll (a kind of tomahawk) in my tool bag which travels with me from time to time. I think it serves a 'legal purpose' but should I get stopped by law enforcement, I believe the decision would be theirs.

In Philadelphia it is illegal to carry ANY cutting instrument that could possibly be used as a weapon. I traveled into and out of the city for years with a very beautiful inlaid tuxedo knife in my suit pocket. It always amused me the this made me a law breaker.

By comparison, concealed carry of a fire arm is legal with a permit. Getting a permit is a matter of filling out a form, submitting a passport sized photo and paying the fee. Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state, so unless you are disqualified under the law (minors, convicted felons, domestic abusers, etc.) you will be issued a concealed carry permit. I believe this process is slightly more restrictive in Philadelphia County, but I don't live there so I couldn't say.

Ironically, knife control is already here, and somewhat more restrictive.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife2.pdf

[R. Morris]

It is really tiresome to hear about the false equivalence of banning knives. Ask ANY (and I mean any) LEO or military person if they would rather face an opponent who is carrying a knife or a firearm. As a non- gun grabber, even I know this is a silly comparison when so many other arguments are available. Such an argument reduces credibility.

[turcopolier]

Ms. Morris

False equivalence? He killed three people with a knife. I am a military man who has done a lot of fighting and I totally reject your PC nonsense. pl

[nick b]

R. Morris,
I think you misunderstand me. The point I was trying to make is that there are already legal restrictions on knives. I don't carry a gun, but I do carry knives, albeit usually the folding, pocket variety, but sometimes long, fixed blades. The way the law is written in my state, it is easier to understand how to legally carry a fire arm than it is a blade. This situation seems odd to me, as does your response.

[Tyler]

Yeah, I'd rather deal with a rifle or pistol at close range and a knife when the jerk is far away. That being said we don't usually pick the time and place and there's no "false equivocacy". I've seen people sent to the hospital with sharpened tooth brushes, to say nothing of some of the knives designed to disembowel people with one stroke.

The problem comes back to the people who cannot accept that life happens and believe that "banning" something means that it will go away. These are often the same people who define something as "common sense" actually mean to say "what I want you to do".

[Tyler]

Here's the thing: any law or procedure or operating standard is only as effective as often as it is followed.

My own experience with this is that too often in our society today doing what should have been done is too hard or it gets ignored routinely. My sister was murdered by her boyfriend, an aggravated felon out on probation via a shot to the face years ago (please hold the sympathy, I don't need it and it misses the point I'm trying to make). He shouldn't have had the gun, yet he did. He had been arrested, but he didn't have his probation rescinded due to space considerations. She would have not have been killed if someone had done their job. He should not have had a gun yet he did, in Delaware with its strict gun control laws.

This is not an isolated thing nor is my unique. Recently an off duty Mesa PD officer was killed by a drunk illegal alien who was driving the wrong way. On a macro level 36K illegal aliens, many of whom are murderers, rapists, and pedophiles (among other crimes), released back into the community. Crash an economy and you get a stern lecture from the podium but no jail time. Refuse to bake a cake for gays and you're risking your livelihood.

Rule of law is not a thing that should ever be taken for granted. It has to be constantly nurtured and upheld. What we are seeing now is a nearly systematic destruction of one of the fundamental elements of Western Civilization, but for what purpose I can only guess. There is no utopia, and you certainly cannot shortcut your way to it by making saints out of illegal aliens and allowing bankers free thrift as long as they keep the donations coming to the right people.

But people don't listen because right now the current overarching ideology is permanent revolution and churn on all fronts.

Onwards to Hell then. Let us see what tomorrow brings.

[Fred]

The Chicago machine seems unconcerned with black on black gang violence where the bystander victim is also black.

[Fred]

R. Morris,

If memory serves the FHP training was that the time it takes to draw your service weapon is long enough for an assailant with a knife to go 21 feet. Maybe the current law enforcement officers or other here can say if that training standard changed.

[Russ]

Hi Pat,
We don’t take issue with any of your points but there is another side of this particular question and similar ones - the mental illness side. In the interest of full disclosure, we do own guns (although not currently in the house) and we do have a son with schizophrenia who lives in the house with us and we wouldn’t have it any other way. He is on his medicines and doing very well. A joy to have around.
As I am sure you know, beginning in the 60’s the country’s mental health hospitals were emptied and there was no system in place to replace the care the patients had been receiving. Moreover, nation wide laws were passed preventing treatment of the mentally ill against their will.
With regard to schizophrenia there are two kinds of victims of this disease - those who know they are sick and are willing to be treated and those who do not believe they are sick and resist attempts to provide care for them and furthermore are often not in a setting where consistent treatment for their illness is even possible. Often they are in a revolving door - life on the street to brief hospital stays to stabilize them or to jail for an offense and then back on the street. Very costly for society and prison systems and their personnel are not properly trained or equipped to deal with the mentally ill. Yet prisons have replaced state hospitals as the place the mentally ill often reside long term.
Fortunately, the pendulum has begun to swing the other way as far as involuntary treatment is concerned. Groups such as psychiatrist Fuller Torrey’s Treatment Advocacy Center are working state by state to make it easier to treat the mentally ill involuntarily. The properly medicated do not shoot people the untreated sometimes do. Guns (or knives) are the instruments not the problem in these cases. Lack of treatment is. And regrettably under trained police departments compound the problem.
Russ

[The Twisted Genius]

nick b,

"Knife control" is no joke. Just out of curiosity, I checked on concealed and open carry laws in Virginia. It's far easier to legally carry a concealed pistol than a concealed fixed blade knife. In fact, there is no provision for concealed carry of a fixed blade knife or sword in the Virginia Code. My 2A right to carry my Gerber Mark II or my working wakizashi is clearly being infringed upon.

[The Twisted Genius]

pl,

It is remarkable that Elliot Rodger’s first three murders with a knife are seldom mentioned in the press. I have found being faced with an edged weapon to be a truly butt puckering experience.