Open Thread on the Ukraine Crisis

I believe the Ukraine crisis will continue indefinitely.  Diplomacy seems to lead nowhere and war between Russia and NATO (the United States) would possibly lead to the end of civilization as we know it.

We will therefore leave this thread open indefinitely.  pl

Comments

[Fred]

So what is our French ally up to:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/16/france-lost-2300-tubes-of-a-deadly-virus/

[Babak Makkinejad]

Nicholas Kristof is emphatically not a bleeding heart.

He was in Iran a few years back and was showered with hospitality of the Iranians people. He came back and wrote and opinion piece in NYT in which he urged crippling sanctions on the Iranian people so that their increased suffering could affect the trajectory of the Iranian nuclear developments.

People like Kristof are not humanitarians in the sense that Mother Theresa was; they are tribalists for whom Iranians, Arabs, Muslims and many others in the world do not qualify as human beings.

Despicable.

[William R. Cumming]

Well in my view the President has called it quits. His travel schedule for the rest of the year has ballooned. Guess DEM incumbent pols told him they don't want him near them even now!

They now know [DEM incumbents]if the 2014 elections about the President they lose. If about them maybe a nail biting win!

Washington rumor has the President dumping the HHS Secretary to prevent her making the Republican ticket as VP in 2016!

It would all great fun if not so serious.

[ffintii]

The Germans know full and well how the Eastern front went in WW2. My guess is Merkel wants to take Obama to the red button, then humiliate him.

[William R. Cumming]

The lead in to this post and thread by PL:
"I believe the Ukraine crisis will continue indefinitely"!

This thoughtful comment prompted me to review my knowledge of Ukrainian history including the movie TARAS BULBA with Yul Brynner and Tony Curtis.

Since Taras Bulba have the peoples of the Ukraine demonstrated any talent for self-government? Even Nikita Kruschev was born in Russia!

What is the Ukraine beyond its writers, artists, and poets?

[georgeg]

Kyvpost is an extension of N.E.D......

[Anna-Marina]

An interview with S. Kohen, a former Soviet dissident and now professor at NYU:
"...things are getting worse and worse. People are being killed. So, obviously, that’s bad, and we’re moving closer toward a military confrontation. The Russians want NATO expansion ended to its all former Soviet republics...

Three other important points:
1. The highest level US and NATO official allow themselves lying openly about the Ukrainian crisis
2. "Sending the head of the CIA, at this inflamed moment to Kiev reinforces the Russian narrative that everything that’s happening in Ukraine is an American provocation"
3. The West' dishonesty has pushed back any democratization processes in Russia and consolidated Putin's power

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/17/we_are_not_beginning_a_new?autostart=true

[The Twisted Genius]

Tyler,

I think the coup leaders in Kiev truly believe East Ukraine is crawling with Russian Spetznaz and other Russian units, notably the Russian 45th Airborne Regiment. News accounts out of Kiev always mention fighting the Russian troops rather than Ukrainian citizens. The videos of the Ukrainian 25th Airborne Regiment troops wearing Saint George ribbons and handing over their BMD-2s to the citizens of Kramatorsk put a dent in this narrative as did the Lada chasing the BMP out of Sloviansk. As these Ukrainian troops return west, the truth will slowly spread by word of mouth.

I believe the Russians are in East Ukraine because that's how they fight. They're probably setting up FAARPs to receive their silent choppers to ferry money, arms and other supplies to Spetznaz teams and Ukrainian resistance units. I know exactly how it's done, but it doesn't take that many Spetznaz soldiers to do this. My team's planned UWOA was near a thousand square miles in southwest Poland.

[The Twisted Genius]

Oops! My memory is slipping. That Lada was chasing what I think was a T-64b, not a BMP. And my UWOA was closer to five thousand square miles. Large parts of the second and third echelon were scheduled to pass through it on the way to the Rhine.

[Mark Logan]

TTG,

To my eye the eastern Ukrainian people in the tapes appear remarkably calmer than the politicians and pundits. Laconic. As if they are not overly concerned which ridiculous bureaucracy they will eventually have to endure. First one that makes them angry loses?

[Tyler]

Thanks TTG, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

It seems like the press is growing more hysterical over here with regards to the situation on the ground.

[Fred]

TTG,

Shouldn’t the Ukrainian army be thought of as a national institution with a history that goes back at least to 1917? Why would such an institution, whose history includes defeating the Wehrmacht - including units made up of native Ukrainian nazis, have any sympathies with current neo-Nazi leaders? Especially ones in power due to a coup that on its face appears to have been fostered by 'the West' (however you want to define West)?

It seems the Ukrainian government has figured out it can't rely on its own army to suppress dissent in the East. They ordered the disbandment of one regiment already. What effect will that have on the rest of the army? That action reminds meof Roman history, where the recently proclaimed emperor Vitellius, thinking he will ensure the loyalty of his legions, disbands the praetorian guard of the man he ousted, thus immediately putting thousands of trained troops out of work, out of favor and out to support his opponent, Vespasian.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-disbands-army-unit-fiasco-push-east-144943083.html

Why would this not be apparent amongst the intelligence agencies in the US and NATO countries, especially after the actions in Egypt where that ‘freely elected’ president Mohamed Morsi was ousted by the Egyptian army - with ongoing popular support from the people of Egypt?

Did Victoria Nuland and company not understand these basic facts or did they ignore them?

It is apparent that the current political leadership in Ukraine is building a military force loyal to it - not the Ukrainian state - the “National Guard of Ukraine”. How is that likely to affect the moral and effectiveness of the rest of the Ukrainian armed forces? Just how is the NG of Ukraine likely to be used - front line troops, political commissars, brownshirts?

I won’t ask who the heck is advising President Obama that continued support of the neo-Nazis now in power in Ukraine is a good idea.

[William R. Cumming]

David H! Newspapers never guessed that in addition to financial challenges created by the existence of the internet their [the newspapers]creative writings would be subject to blog analysis.

[William R. Cumming]

TTG! Question? Before the crisis were there all-Ukrainian units in the Russian military and were many Ukrainians in command or leadership positions in the Russian military?

[The Twisted Genius]

Fred,

The new National Guard units that Kiev is creating are largely composed of the hard core cadres of the right wing nationalist Svoboda Party. It will be tasked with law enforcement duties, protecting the country's borders, and fighting terrorism. In other words, it's a Brown Shirt-like armed force answering only to the coup leaders in Kiev that will be used to attack the pro-Russian separatists in the South and East Ukraine. Pravy Sektor paramilitary forces are also being legitimized to fight alongside the National Guard.

The best of Ukraine's forces (SBU Alpha commandos and the 25th Airborne Regiment) have already proved their unwillingness to take on their countrymen in the East.

[The Twisted Genius]

WRC,

There were 7 million Ukrainians in the Soviet Army in WW II. There were over 350 Ukrainian generals and marshals as well. That integration existed until 1991.

Soviet units stationed on Ukrainian soil when Ukraine declared independence in 1991 were nationalized and became the Ukrainian armed forces. These Ukrainian units had long histories as Soviet Units. A lot of these units were disbanded for economic reasons. AFAIK no new units were formed since independence, only reorganized from former Soviet units. Only some very senior Ukrainian military leaders had experience in the Soviet forces. It's been over twenty years. The more important factor is the long history of close cooperation between the Ukrainian and Russian since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

[Tyler]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my previous question.

The Right Sector thing doesn't sound at all analogous to what happened with the SA. Nope.

[confusedponderer]

It tells a story by itself when the unwillingness of armed forces to shoot at their countrymen is the express reason for the formation of new units (who, and that is inescapable, would be more 'reliable'?).

The coup government could just rightaway call their new forces 'revolutionary guards', though with Americans that may be poor naming. On the other hand, given US attention spans, why bother. I'm sure Kerry wouldn't get the joke.

In the ukrainian context, the presumed willingness to shoot at countrymen of other ethicity, be they 'muskars', poles or Jews has a sad and a sinister connotation.

Alexander Cockburns article below is a must read for anyone who wants to get a glimpse at the demonic, primeval focers that way be unleashed by having empowered folks like Pravy Sektor.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/to-see-what-ukraines-future-may-be-just-look-at-lvivs-shameful-past-9178968.html

[Fred]

Just what kind of 'freedom' is the National Endowment for Democracy promoting?

Just a rhetorical question.

[Tyler]

Sounds like there's a "plan" afoot to somehow replace Russian LNG with US LNG:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/us-gas-will-never-replace-russian-gas-europe

[Fred]

The interesting take in Zerohedge is the dozen or so banker 'suicides' and one outright murder. Seems some folks are finally fed up with getting ripped off by the sharks. Or more accurately the corrupt sharks are eating each other.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-07/4th-financial-services-executive-found-dead-self-inflicted-nail-gun-wounds

[William R. Cumming]

Today May 25th a Ukrainian oligarch won the election for President of the Ukraine. No surprise here since oligarchs have controlled the Ukraine since 1991! I assume voters in the Crimea did not vote today. Perhaps am wrong.