"Orange Crush?" What's next? Moscow?

"What we are risking is a great power confrontation. The various Russian strategic thinkers have already said that NATO bases in Ukraine would be a serious strategic threat to the existence of an independent Russia. So, if Ukraine moves into the EU and then NATO bases are on their way, there's no doubt whatsoever that southern and eastern Ukraine are going to split off, and I just don't believe the Russians are going to give up their naval base on the Black Sea. So, if the Americans push too hard, and by Americans I mean Washington, of course, it's going to be a great power confrontation. Very, very serious thing... I mean what in the world do you think Washington cares about democracy in Ukraine? They don't even have any in the United States! We have a police state that spies on everybody, the whole world. The media is a propaganda ministry. It's worse than it ever was in the Soviet Union. People have no idea of what's going on and what they're told about the Ukraine is a fabrication."  Paul Craig Roberts quoted in the Voice of Russia

-------------------------------------

If you are Russian, it is very easy to see what has happened in Kiev as a neocon inspired US plot for which the "second act" will be an attempt to foment  a similar uprising in Russia itself.  This belief is reflected in the article quoted above. 

Paul Craig Roberts and Phil Geraldi make strong cases for the continued influence of the neocnservatives.  As a conspiratorial "vanguard" the neocons think nothing of changing their official party identity in pursuit of power.

Americans should ask themselves if people like Victoria Nuland and Michael Rubin are dragging the United States toward a crisis and possible conflict with Russia.

The neocons gave us the Iraq war.  What a triumph that has proven to be.  What new mischief will they heap upon the heads of the American people?  pl  

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2014/02/17/diplomacy-is-a-four-letter-word/ 

http://voiceofrussia.com/us/2014_02_22/Former-Reagan-Asst-Sec-Washington-neocons-behind-Ukraine-protests-7567/

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/neocon-watch/2014/february/22/michael-rubin-hopes-that-the-violence-in-ukraine-spreads!.aspx

Comments

[b]

"If you are Russian, it is very easy to see what has happened in Kiev as a neocon inspired US plot"

That is right, but it is even worse. They used fascist front troops. All the violent fights with the police and the current out-of-control mess were caused by these. The Russians lost 20 million fighting fascism and now the U.S. is threatening them with it?

Do the neocons believe they can control those fascists? Just like they can (not!) control those Jihadists in Syria. Or do they only care about delivering destruction?

If I were Russian I would be fuming.

Putin's response will be well measured but delivered with cold wrath? U.S. beware.

[rjj]

why not drop the -conservative and -liberal figleaves and call them nihilists - or neonihilists (if there is something new about this latest manifestation of id as ideology).

[Tyler]

When the shoe is on the other foot I imagine the US is going to be pretty pissed off when Russia starts supplying secessionist movements in the US in the name of "Freedom".

[William R. Cumming]

I often believe that full disclosure of the financial interests and earned and passive income of MSM commenters from all sources might tend to allow others to weigh their credibility and conflicts.

One example from the academic world also. Economists!

P.L. dislikes the Political Scientists. I dislike Economists. Almost every academic economist who speaks on the record [and even in academic literature] has outside income greater than their salary from someone who has the proverbial axe to grind. The Elinor Ostrom's an exception.

And BTW the economists [always right in their opinions] in D.C. outnumber the lawyers [hired guns also]!

[b]

The Russians delivered perfect Olympic games. The won the most medals. The message of the closing ceremony was "Russia is great" and that message is believed and correct.

I am afraid that The U.S. is underestimating Russia. Therein lies the possibility of serious miscalculations.

[VietnamVet]

Colonel,

Exactly! Thank God for your continued frontline service for us.

Ukraine could be a repeat of the USA backing down from the Syrian bombing campaign under Russian pressure. However, the slightest miscalculation or a prolonged civil war could escalate into World War III. Russia will invade to preserve their control the Russian speaking areas of the Ukraine and their bases in the Crimea, just like they did in 2008 in Georgia. This is an incredibly risky business.

[zanzibar]

WRC

I agree with you that conflicts of interest abound.
Just like the political scientists, academic economists have no sense of history. They have become so deluded by their mathematics that they have convinced themselves that the global economy is some kind of machine, that they (so called "technocrats") can turn the knobs just right. They place no weight on the capriciousness of human behavior. And they take no responsibility for their actions. Each time when the tide recedes they claim it was unknowable. The transcripts of the Fed meetings in 2008 is an excellent example of how clueless these people are yet their belief in their own capabilities are unmatched.

It's a tragedy that so much incompetence is allowed to be at the wheel. Maybe it's just a reflection of our society at large.

[William R. Cumming]

Extract from wili:

"Paul Craig Roberts (born April 3, 1939) is an American economist and a columnist for Creators Syndicate. He served as an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration and was noted as a co-founder of Reaganomics. He is a former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service. He has testified before congressional committees on 30 occasions on issues of economic policy.

During the 21st century, Roberts has frequently published in Counterpunch, writing extensively about the effects of the Bush (and later Obama) administrations related to the War on Terror, which he says have destroyed the US Constitution's protections of Americans' civil liberties, such as habeas corpus and due process. He has taken positions different from former Republican allies, opposing the War on Drugs and the War on Terror, and criticizing Israel's policies and actions against the Palestinians."

[oth]

For supposed amateurs, giving the Russians a new Chechnya-lite would seem to be a reasonable price for their meddling in the Syria Project.

Can't be distracted from the Pacific Pivot.

[Norbert M Salamon]

Wonder what Ms. Merkel and Mr. Putin discussed? Germany is lot closer to the possible trouble spot, never mind gas deliveries.

[turcopolier]

oth

the danger is that the amateurs might get us sucked into supporting Ukrainian resistance to the Russians. pl

[William R. Cumming]

A footnote with no statistical significance. I seldom travel often anymore to the DC area but do visit my married sons, their wives and my three granddaughters!

Over the years have met many Russians and Russian-Americans. Some came up to me on the street as paid pamphlet distributors. Minimum wage I am sure. I also know many distinguished Soviet scientists were discriminated against and prevented from joining US faculty ranks after the Berlin Wall came down.

How does it relate to this post? Oddly many I met thinking at first were Russian were actually born and raised in the Ukraine. It would be of interest to know whether there are actually more Ukrainians resident or citizens of the US than ethnic Great Russians?

TTG and David H. addressed my earlier question as to the birthplace of Nikita Kruschev [sic]! Was he not the "ruthless" Commissar of the Ukraine during WWII?

[jerseycityjoan]

I am not buying the "it's all a plot" idea.

Are there plots? Did radical groups participate in Ukraine? Well, yeah.

But that's a minor point.

The major point, it seems to me, is that the elites around the world have been very successful over the past few decades in walling themselves behind various barriers (mostly not physical) from which they have directed wealth from the people -- as consumers and taxpayers -- to themselves.

Given the numerous provocations, the people's response has been almost nonexistent.

For a whole host of reasons, I think that the passivity and despondency that led to inaction will not go on for much longer. For one thing, given the outlook for most of today's young people, they have every reason to refuse the crappy future that's being pushed on them.

They don't want a lifetime of being broke and ignored, and they will start fighting back.

Their future really will depend on saying no.

So while I fully expect we will see that social unrest will bring out the radical but mostly obscure groups that were already present in many places and that they may be a big presence in the street fighting, I am not going to just assume that most of protesters are as bad or worse as the people they are protesting against.

If the elites don't want protesters, then they should start about giving people fewer reasons to protest.

[turcopolier]

jcj

Naive, Did Egypt work out well for you? How about Iraq and Afghanistan? How about Yemen? Was Salih really that bad or did the MSM idiots paint him as being that bad? pl

[kao_hsien_chih]

The trouble is that a lot of "other" elites in Ukraine, those who stand to benefit by ditching Russia and hooking up with the West, are supporting the protests. (while other elites, invested in maintaining close relationship with Russia, are backing Yanukovich) This is hardly a clash between "the people" and "the money." The more I look at the situation, the more the protesters remind me of the Tea Partiers in US.

[Fred]

oth,

Yes, what city will be next to be "Boston Strong" because of some Ukrainian living in the US thinks we American's aren't helping enough?

[Tyler]

Personally, I think its a little too complex in the Ukraine to be slapping labels (communist/fascist/etc) on the sides, other than I doubt the men who make up the Eastern Ukrainian side are going to take kindly to orders from the banker & technocrat class.

The funny part is the NYT and the other house organs of the WH trying to convince themselves and others that these Eastern Ukrainians are somehow fighting against Putin because of gay rights. Ahahaha, how much longer before we get into a war for LBGTBBQ rights, like how Afghanistan became about woman's rights or some nonsense because of these same nanny state IDIOTS.

[kao_hsien_chih]

Reasonable, like shelling Belgrade in 1914?

[kao_hsien_chih]

Remember... Soviets did it first in Afghanistan! :P

Of course, these same people (or their fathers) thought anti-communist Russian nationalists were supporters of Western-style "democracy".....

[GulfCoastPirate]

Tyler stated:

'The funny part is the NYT and the other house organs of the WH trying to convince themselves and others '

Were you referring to the NYT this way when they were cheerleading for Bush and the Iraq debacle?

[GulfCoastPirate]

kao_hsien_chih said:

'The more I look at the situation, the more the protesters remind me of the Tea Partiers in US.'

Exactly. If Hillary beats them in 2016 this country will basically become ungovernable.

[Harry]

People have long memories in the region, and Lviv had a lot of enthusiastic Ukrainians who were all too happy to assist the third reich in rounding up Jews. What would you call the descendants of these people, particularly when they reportedly turn up for battle with the authorities with EU flags and Nazi insignia? Uncomfortable stuff for the Germans Im sure!

[Wladyslaw]

b is correct. Putin's response will be measured and delivered with cold wrath, Divine Wrath. What is not noted is that today's Russia is a Christian nation and the cornerstone of Russian foreign policy is protection of persecuted Christians. Obama chiseled out of the DC WWII Memorial FDR's Christian prayer after Pearl Harbor. The Russian navy incorporated the Orthodox Cross of St.George into its insignia. Who has God's protection? The dark Godless American Empire spreading death and destruction worldwide or Christian Russia? Putin is the leader of the truly free world. The likes of McCain is nothing but the treasonous traitor of Hanoi Hilton and a madman. As for revanchists like Brzezynski and neocon Polish(-American) Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski remember this: the descendants of the Bolsheviks came to America and took over. Beware of their allies posing as diplomats.

[jerseycityjoan]

I do not support every uprising or group that uprises.

There are many uprisings recently that have succeeded on a superficial level but have turned out not to be victories for the groups that carried them out, or for people in the West who would like more democracy and less income inequality.

But I expect more social unrest around the world.

I just don't see how we can pin what happened in Ukraine on far right groups, any more than we can pin things in the Middle East on the radical Islamists.

If the last 10 years have just been the start of decades of shifting and changing of power and alliances around the world, we'd need to be thinking about the implications of a world in a higher state of instability and uproar than we are used to, and how we will respond. We ourselves may well be entering a period of higher state of instablility and uproar too, that's another factor to consider.

[Fred]

Supply political groups (politicians) money to get elected? That would sure give AIPAC and the Koch brothers (amongst many others) a run for the money.