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05 December 2013

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nick b

I had the great pleasure of meeting Nelson Mandela at a reception at Gracie Mansion in 1992. I'm sure he met hundreds of people that day, but he was warm and seemed quite pleased to make my acquaintance. I recall he used both hands when shaking mine.

Will Reks

Remarkable indeed. I don't think Mandela expected to die peacefully in his sleep.

Tyler

I guess I'll be the spoiler.

Mandela was some unholy amalgamation of Mugabe and Che, who introduced the world to "necklacing" in order to punish black collaborators and was singing "Kill the Boer" well into the 2000s. As far as I know he never renounced the violence inflicted against the white populace of South Africa after the end of apartheid.

de Klerk was a coward who was more worried about being invited to cocktail parties by the "right" people and him and the rest of South Africa's "elite" sold out their countrymen so they could get the luxuries they craved while they fled the mess they left behind for those that couldn't afford villas in Europe and Canada.

Between the two of them they turned a nuclear powered, first world nation into a third world hellhole where they sell portable flame throwers to keep you from getting carjacked and violent crimes are through the roof and resulted in a massive diaspora of the Afrikaaner people who could get out and the brutal existence of those who stayed behind.

The BEST thing that could be said, IMHO, is that South Africa proves the saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

turcopolier

tyler

Life is more than an opportunity to be ungracious. Irony. Irony. Irony. pl

Tyler

Sir,

I'm still trying to learn poise, graciousness, and all the other subtle arts from observing you. You make it look easier than it is.

turcopolier

tyler

You see! It is not all that difficult. Irony. Irony. pl

William R. Cumming

Many are alive that would otherwise be dead if Mandela had not lived!

confusedponderer

Re: Mandela's leftist past ...

It didn't take a commie to object to Apartheid.

It casts a sad light on the Reaganites that they - to stereotype - were only able to perceive Mandela through the prism of the cold war, in which every lefty was an ally of Moscow, and thus had to be opposed, quite irrespective of what he was rebelling against.

People tend to express themsleves in the language of the time, and at Mandela's time that was largely a leftist language. And then, under pressure as intense as under Apartheid, for good or ill, or just for lack of choice, people tend to take whatever allies they can get just to survive.

But with ideology it's not as with Calvinism and predetermination - once a commie, and always a commie and thus forever damned. People can change and some do.

Irrespective of Mandelas beliefs and associations, Mandela has done a lot of good, and for that he deserves credit.

mo

Tyler,
"resulted in a massive diaspora of the Afrikaaner people"?

To those of us opposed to colonialism in all its forms, mission f********g accomplished!

turcopolier

mo

How about us European descended Americans and Canadians? Should we be dispersed as well? The Boers have been in Africa just about as long. Who is a South African? A similar question can be asked of many "Arabs?" Should those descended from the Ottoman ruling class return to Turkey? How far back do you want to start in a search for legitimacy? pl

turcopolier

CP

Baloney. Mandela was, as Tyler, says, a reformed terrorist/guerrilla nationalist. His conversion to non-violence seems to have occurred during his long prison term. Perhaps you have forgotten but there really was a Cold War and the outcome did matter, not least to Germany. pl

turcopolier

WRC


"Many are alive that would otherwise be dead if Mandela had not lived!" Explain to me how that is. Is along the line of argument that Abraham Lincoln was a great peace maker and humanitarian? pl

turcopolier

all

There is a lot of sentimentalist nonsense being said about Mandela. "Beginning on 16 December 1961, the campaign by Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched bomb attacks on government targets and planned for possible guerrilla warfare.[6] The first target of the campaign was an electricity sub-station. Umkhonto we Sizwe undertook other acts of sabotage in the next eighteen months. The government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total.[7] The sabotage included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities and crop burning.[5]" What a surprise that Reagan and Thatcher did not want to see this man take over the government. Wiki on Mandela. pl

mo

Colonel,
When someone such as Tyler complains that the colonial can no longer enjoy the comforts of the savagery of apartheid then I make no apology in welcoming them to go find a life elsewhere.

turcopolier

mo

You did not answer my question. "the colonial?" How are Afrikaners whose ancestors arrived in Southern Africa in the 18th Century more "colonialists" than I am? pl

Matthew

Tyler: If the only way Afrikaner people survive in South Africa is by maintaining a brutal system of racial superiority, then they should go into the Disapora. And few would mourn their departure.

When the South Africa government requires white South Africans to live in bantustans and carry internal passports, get back to us.

Matthew

Col: That's easy. There is a big difference between stripping one ethnic group of privileges versus strippping it of rights. Whites can vote and hold office in the new South Africa. They are not being asked to carry internal passports. They are not relegated to bantustans. They just no longer have the privilege of ruling Blacks.

turcopolier

Matthew

"there is a big difference between stripping one ethnic group of privileges versus strippping it of right" This is a good description of British behavior all over the world before WW2. Do you not consider the American Indian to be an oppressed people? I am still waiting for an answer to my question to "mo." pl

oofda

And don't forget the Anglos (from UK heritage)in South Africa- remember the Boer Wars. The social strata is complicated, with blacks, Anglos , Boers/Afrikaaners (Dutch descent), mixed-race, and those of Indian descent (think Ghandi). And the blacks are from different tribes.

Tyler

"Colonialism" hurr. Another leftist with emotional arguments. Yes the "colonials" who lived there for hundreds of years and built a country out of nothing are dying and fleeing en masse, but your moral superiority muscle is massaged.

Meanwhile the colonization of then first world by the third continues to the cheers of many on the Left. Hypocrisy.

Tyler

Your moralistic declaratives and demand to meddle in someone else's society would likely be recognizable to any Confederate.

Fred

Should we be freeing Mexico from thier 'colonial' elites? How about Peru, or Brazil?

Rehmat

A few months ago, Rabbi Dana Evan Kaplan, posted an article at the Jewish Daily Forward, titled, ‘The 2 Sides of Nelson Mandela’. In it he claims “the iconic figure not always perfect leader – especially for Jews“.

http://rehmat1.com/2013/07/09/rabbi-kaplan-nelson-mandela-hated-jews/

Fred

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the great deeds of Robert Mugabe, 'liberator' of Rhodesia?

Matthew

Col: I thought I had answered it implictly. Of course, white South Africans are real South Africans. I'm not sure how opposing white privilege implies believing in white illegitimacy. (I disagree with Mo.)

We had white Rhodesians in our family. I think they had just as much right as Mugabe to live there. But they did not have a right by law to rule a black majority.

I don't support black rule in South Africa or Zimbabwe. I only support democratic rule. (BTW, Indians in South Africa are real South Africans too.)

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