« "Sayyid Qutub’s Fundamentalism and Abu Bakr Naji’s Jihadism" William R. Polk | Main | HARPER: AIPAC'S WATERLOO »

05 December 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

turcopolier

TTG

"I just don't agree that a recognized government whether in firm control of the people or not, has any inherent right to continue to govern those people nor do the people have any moral duty to perpetuate that government." I completely agree. The Declaration of Independence although not law agrees. My point had nothing to do with Afrikaner right to maintain their government . It had to do with the limits of just action on the part of Mandela and the ANC. pl

The Twisted Genius

PL, Then we agree. Especially in our knowledge that people are redeemable. Thank you for indulging my thinking out loud.

MRW

But it wasn't like that when Mandela was ruling, Tyler. The rich whites begged Mandela to run for a second term in 1998, when he stepped down. I know this only because rich South African whites told me so. What he accomplished was nothing short of remarkable. And standing in that prison cell he was in for 27 years on Ronnen Island was a sobering experience for me.

kxd

I dispute your assertion De Klerk and the others who supported the transitional government knew the country would turn into where it stands now. None of that was guaranteed. Both Mandela and De Klerk did not want the country torn apart, judging by their desire to cooperate. I did not say the ANC or a number of its supporters had clean hands in what happened in SA. I know fully well the atrocities they commited against whites and blacks and other ethnic minorities of SA. The TRC revealed as much. I simply stated Mandela had tried to conduct those missions leading up to his trial and conviction with the intent of minimising civilian casualties, based on the fact they tried to carry out attacks at times and periods when it would result in minimal casualties. After Mandela's imprisonment the ANC and MK to be more specific, did regress to more unruly, unbecoming tactics. I stated as much when mentioning Winnie's role. And I did notfully absolve Mandela either did I? I stated he should have used his influence while in prison to reign her and her cohorts in. But my overall point was you cannot lay all the massacaring at Mandela's doorstep.

As for the TRC being a joke, that's your opinion, but I believe an attempt to try and break the cycle of violence and allow the country to move forward was a better choice than going to civil war and carrying on the bloodshed. For sure, we would've turned into Zimbabwe before Zimbabwe did. I know people on boths sides believe the TRC did not do anyone justice. That may be, but I don't how a civil war would served justice either.

In the end though, I understand Colonel Lang's point and wholeheartedly agree: there must be rules to follow and standards to adhere to in war. The ANC commited atrocities, Mandela had a part to play in that before his formative years in prison. It should have never come to that, there should've been a just response to the apartheid regime. But it is easy for me to make such a statement, as I personally have never had to experience a life that would test my resolve to hold onto my humanity and intregity and act justly.

turcopolier

MRW

I heard one of Mandela's colleagues from prison say yesterday that they came to believe that NM had actually been recruited by the government. He was in several prisons, and they were more and more comfortable as his confinement progressed and his thinking evolved. After some years he came to have long chats with people like the wardens of his jails, the head of the prison system, the head of South African intelligence and finally de Klerk. This is an interesting thought. A number of such figures have been "corrupted" by people like me and TTG. Michael Collins was thought by his killers to be an asset of either MI-5 or Special Branch. He had played the role of double agent for many years supposedly in the interest of deceiving them. After after a while it becomes difficult to be certain what such a person is. Perhaps he felt as president that he was too compromised in favor of the white rich class and should remove himself from power. pl

Tyler

If your benchline is "not worst than Rhodesia", then you've obviously got a problem. The results of what were going to happen was only a surprise if you believed in pie in the sky narratives. You had Rhodesia staring you right in the face a border away. Of course, these events always "surprise" the elites responsible for pursuing them, away from the events of the ground. Its not about laying all the massacres on Mandela's doorstep, its about pointing out the Emperor has no clothes as opposed to this creepy beatification by the media that's currently engaged in pretending Mandela walked on water.

You say the TRC kept the country from civil war? That's inane - there might not be a civil war but there's a diaspora and wholescale massacre of the whites left behind. The TRC has done nothing to address that situation, which should have been obvious to anyone with eyes in lieu of making sure anyone who claimed their crimes were "against apartheid" couldn't be prosecuted. If the TRC was successful, why the wholescale FLEEING from South Africa?

Apartheid built the civilization there, much as it might pain some to admit it. Now look where we are. Like I told Matthew - if you thinks things really are better, go take a walk through Johannesburg and get back with me.

Tyler

The rich whites are able to ensconce themselves in fortresses protected by armed guards.

Meanwhile the non-elites get by the best they can.

The "rich" abandoned their people so they could get their luxuries imported - a disgusting betrayal. It doesn't change the fact SA is a hellhole now by and large.

Tyler

Well we can agree on that, but then again the "change" didn't come from below as much as it did from busybody moralizers from outside the country.

I'm sure Assad would recognize the same blend of propaganda, make believe "Facts", and gathering of world opinion him that South Africa suffered.

Babak Makkinejad

You have to develop the leadership to whom power can be past.

Jack

I am aware of South Africans of Afrikaner descent returning because their worst fears of mass genocide against the white population didn't materialize.

Would you know the percentage of the white population that have fled in the past couple years? What are the incidents of "wholescale massacres " of whites?

Tyler

I know plenty who are leaving South Africa for greener pastures in New Zealand and Australia because its so bad over there. Are you really going to try and argue "WELL MY FRIEND" when they're using flamethrowers to stop carjackings over there?

Here's the results a google search:

http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html

Enjoy.

I'd say if you're so hot to trot on South Africa, accept what I am now calling the "Johannesburg Challenge" with your own skin before being feeling all moral without any risk to your own person.

Tyler

When your benchmark goes from "First World Nuclear Power" to "Well at least we're not Rhodesia!" I think that's what you call a disaster.

Tyler

I imagine a lot of my issue with the entire South African situation is that I can see parallels between how apartheid went down and how the amnesty treason is being presented to us now.

Stephanie

From NYT obit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/06/world/africa/nelson-mandela_obit.html?_r=0&pagewanted=print

"Tokyo Sexwale, who had come to Robben Island as a student rebel, spoke in a “Frontline” interview about encountering Mr. Mandela in this comfortable house. Mr. Mandela walked them through the house, showing off the television and the microwave. “And,” Mr. Sexwale said, “I thought, ‘I think you are sold out.’ ”

Mr. Mandela seated his visitors at a table and patiently explained his view that the enemy was morally and politically defeated, with nothing left but the army, the country ungovernable. His strategy, he said, was to give the white rulers every chance to retreat in an orderly way."

From The Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/10140848/Nelson-Mandelas-challenging-relationship-with-FW-de-Klerk.html

"In the event, Mandela got his way, ensuring that he would be released at the prison gates, but compromising on the timing by settling for an extra week in jail instead of 10 days.

This set the pattern for their confrontations to come: Mandela would generally get his way, with just enough of a compromise to allow de Klerk to save face."

Doesn't sound like negotiating from strength to me, although certainly de Klerk had cards to play and did play them. De Klerk does deserve credit for a sense of realism and a willingness to retreat in the orderly way on offer, qualities not universally evident among the white elite. I don't regard him as being of anywhere near Mandela's stature, myself, but opinions will differ.

Poul

I'm not so sure that he ever gave up on armed struggle.

http://africa.harvard.edu/apj/mandela-genius-of-restraint/

Quote
"Finally, Mandela was released from prison in February 1990. Mandela encouraged internationals to continue pressuring the apartheid government for reform. He stated his commitment to work toward peace, but also declared that the ANC’s armed struggle would continue until the black majority received the right to vote. Mandela was thus very firm on the rights of Black South Africans, but also signaled a willingness to move towards reconciliation, setting aside any bitterness or malice because of his prison ordeal."


Some of the worst violence which the ANC carried out was after Mandela's release from prison.

Bombings against restaurants and shopping malls to hit the white populations and attacks on Black political rivals in particular the Zulus who got burned alive with gasoline soaked tyres around their necks.

On the plus side once the goal of abolishing Apartheid was accomplished. Vengeance was not on the top of his agenda.

turcopolier

Stephanie

NM's statements and behavior sound to me like the rationalizations of a recruited asset. Assets often seek to persuade themselves that they are not controlled by forces other than themselves. It is a common thing. pl

Tyler

Here's a rather involved piece (with links!) for some of y'all.

http://takimag.com/article/mandela_what_the_obits_omit_jim_goad/print

"The show argues that Mandela was able to quell racial tensions in South Africa and bring together a “rainbow nation” merely by being big-hearted enough to endorse the country’s rugby team. We are not informed that two years after his release from prison, Mandela joined ANC members in a group sing-along of a cheery ditty whose lyrics reputedly included “kill the whites.” Nothing was mentioned of other ANC slogans such as “kill the Boers” and “one settler, one bullet,” nor of ANC officials’ comments such as “When Mandela goes, we will kill you whites like flies.” And they didn’t dare show any photos of the thousands of white farmers that have been savagely massacred since apartheid ended. And we were not informed that rather than ushering in a post-racial utopia, South Africa’s Black Economic Empowerment program dictates wealth redistribution along racial lines. "

Babak Makkinejad

BCC Radio 4 Schedule for the next few days

6:00am - Shipping Forecast: The weather, and how rough weather delayed Nelson Mandela's boat when returning from Robben Island at the end of his captivity.

6:05am - News bulletin - Today Programme: An overview of the latest news. Our team of reporters broadcast from Pretoria and Cape Town to give you the latest developments on N Mandela's funeral and feelings in the country.

9:00am - Woman's Hour - Four women are invited to talk about Nelson Mandela and his legacy. One of them is South African and he once made a pass at her during a political meeting. Discover what happened.

10:00am - Book reading - An extract from the authorized biography of Nelson Mandela.

10:45am - World Music - Focus on South Africa and Nelson Mandela's legacy.

11:30am - Cookery programme - Nelson Mandela's favourite recipes.

12:30pm - News bulletin - Broadcast live from Jo'burg: latest on Nelson Mandela's funeral. Ukraine and Nelson Mandela. The Philippines and Nelson Mandela. The Euro-Zone and Nelson Mandela. The rise in energy prices in the UK and Nelson Mandela. Terrorism in Egypt and Nelson Mandela.

1:30pm - Travel and far-away places: A journey across the South Africa of Nelson Mandela.

2:30pm - Social issues and Politics (debate): The politics of Apartheid and South Africa in the 21st century. What has changed? What hasn't?

4:00pm - Children's Corner - We broadcast from a secondary school in Soweto: "What does Nelson Mandela mean to you, children?"

5:00pm - News bulletin: Live from Cape Town and Durban in South Africa. Nelson Mandela, Britain, and the price of baked beans in the shops.

6:00pm - Evening concert/Classical Music: A memorial concert broadcast from Pretoria to commemorate the life and achievements of Nelson Mandela. Sponsored by Shell Oil, British Telecom, HSBC and the Liberal Democrats. Followed by discussion: Nelson Mandela and Classical Music: What did Mozart and Haendel think of Nelson Mandela?

9:00pm - Blues and Jazz: Blues and Jazz in South Africa and Nelson Mandela.

10:00pm - Today's World of Science & Technology: Nelson Mandela and nuclear physics.

11:00pm - Question Time in Parliament: The PM is asked about Nelson Mandela's funeral and its impact on the British people and the UK as well as Europe.

12 midnight: Close. South African national anthem.


PS I have nothing against the man, and he was clearly a great leader, but I am grateful that he will not die a 2nd time. Once is enough.

David Habakkuk

Babak Makkinejad,

I loved this. Have you ever lived in Britain -- or is this just the product of listening to Radio 4? The current controller, incidentally, grew up there.

Amir

Slavok Zizek, probably shares the conclusion of your analysis:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/if-nelson-mandela-really-had-won

Mandela won against Apartheid but prolonged the Inequality in S.A.

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

September 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
    1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30      
Blog powered by Typepad