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15 December 2013

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turcopolier

JCJ

I could easily have stayed in SA, converted to Islam and had several wives. I did not. I know several Americans who did that and they became very rich. Your insinuation that my insistence on the civil rights of those who wish to marry more than one person is based on secret yearnings is just wrong. "or it will be only A that changes. I do not think polygamy will become popular. If we agree to pay for it as taxpayers, we're nuts." The massive changes in American mores and law that have occurred in my lifetime do not support your assertion that such changes are not linked and indeed inevitable in their linkage. The truth is that you, like a lot of Americans, have a deeply felt bias against other cultures when "the rubber meets the road." How would taxpayers pay for legalized polygamy? pl

Tyler

I think a lot of it has to do with those in the NYC/DC/LA cultural axis unable to view things outside of that limited paradigm.

There will be a correction against this sort of lifestyle sooner rather than later.

jerseycityjoan

My curiosity was not about whether you wanted multiple wives, not at all. I would never have attempted to ask you that, in any case. I am sorry you thought that.

I wondered if you supported these societies enough to be willing to imagine being born into one of them, a forced participant in their "life lottery" yourself. Because that is what I see going on here.

If you are born into their culture, it seems the chances for being a "loser" in that life lottery is pretty high. The winners are the adult men with the multiple wives; the losers are the men without any wife and the women and children.

It is one thing to look at this from the outside but another to be looking at it from the inside. I can only thank God I am looking at it from the outside. I wish no one were looking at it from the inside.


William Fitzgerald

Pat Lang,

From what I've read, the offshoot Mormon groups of southern Utah and northern Arizona, though not in legal polygamous arrangements have been able to game the system quite well. In the case of legal polygamy, off the top of my head, I think tax deductions, earned income credit, food stamps, Medicaid, public education and unemployment insurance could provide substantial financial help to a hypothetical family of husband, four wives, and sixteen children. And, the husband has removed three girls from the pool available to the poor chap who's looking for the love of his life.

WPFIII

abusinan

"Married Islamically" just means that the relationship has met the requirements under Islamic law, ie Mahr has been paid, ect.

So one relationship is legal under state law, the others are not, and all are legal under Islamic law.

I have zero problem with the practice as long as everyone knows what they are getting into. All too often the women involved are tricked into it, or given the choice of letting the husband take a second wife or be divorced. In many Islamic cultures , divorce for a woman is a gigantic social issue that allows men to use it as a blackmail tool.

turcopolier

JCJ

Abu Sinan is an American convert to Islam. He raises the point that Muslim women are sometimes coerced by social pressure into marriages that they do not like. that is certainly true, but it is also true that Muslim women cannot be forced into marriage and they have the right to divorce. pl

turcopolier

wpfIII

"the husband has removed three girls from the pool available to the poor chap who's looking for the love of his life." So what? are you the marriage boss? the argument about polygamous welfare "kings" is just bigotry. pl

William Fitzgerald

David Habakkuk,

I immediately, upon reading your remarks, grabbed my Book of Common Prayer and concluded that you are substantially, though not literally correct. Holy Matrimony while not a Sacrament of the Gospel, is "an honorable estate, instituted of God,signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church". The teachings of the church and the studies of history and anthropology and the immutabiliy of the concept of marriage as between man and woman render the notion of same - sex marriage inconceivable.

I would say that the view of marriages in other religions and traditions and the practices therein are perceived as just different and, perhaps, not the right or Godly way to do things. The abhorrence of practices in Islamic marriage you mentioned probably has to do with local and tribal customs more than the institution of marriage itself.

WPFIII

turcopolier

WPFIII

"Holy Matrimony while not a Sacrament of the Gospel," i am not sure what you mean by "a sacrament of the Gospel." pl

optimax

Some here make it sound like monogamy is a form of sexual socialism that guarantees each adult an acceptable mate. Most states do not have anti-cohabitation laws and it doesn't seem like a popular trend. If the income-gap continues to grow, a marriage-gap would grow correspondingly. But that would just be a symptom of a much larger inequality.

shepherd

The question is the total cost, isn't it? So while he'd have all those benefits if they were married, don't his extra wives now still get substantial tax deductions, earned income credit, food stamps, Medicaid, public education and unemployment insurance? It might not be all that different.

Babak Makkinejad

In Islam, there is a limit of 4 on the number of wives although that is relaxed in Shia Islam under the statutes governing temporary marriages.

I think what you have been stating certainly took place under the late Sassanid period in Iran whereby men could marry a large number of women - they had a Kade-Banoo - the head wife - whose duties included managing the other wives who happened to include the cook, the servant etc.

This phenomenon probably was one of the causes of the Mazdak Revolt.

At any rate, I think although the dispensation to marry more than one wife is granted in the Quran, in actual practice their numbers have been fewer than one would otherwise expect - for a variety of reasons, I should imagine.

I think the application of the Quranic dispensation made eminent sense in USSR after World War II and likewise in Germany.

And I think Paraguay could have benefited from legalization of polygamy with certain limits.

Lastly, for men who find themselves in analogous situations as Bill Clinton found himself, perhaps the institution of (temporary) polygamous union to another women could have offered a certain level of comfort.


Tyler

I'm not arguing with your disposition of superfluous males, but with your assurance that "modern American females" will be the sand in the gears to any sort of polygamy. In my experience, American women gravitate naturally towards alpha males, no matter how much they might claim they just want a "sensitive guy who listens".

Ergo, Tamerlane's strong feminist wife putting on a burqa and marrying a Chechen thug.

Feminists will do what they have done since the beginnings of their idiotic 'movement'- rewrite the script and claim that's what they've believed all along as they turn to a strong provider after they find out their Masters in Gender Studies qualifies them to work at Starbucks and little else.

turcopolier

tyler

"In my experience, American women gravitate naturally towards alpha males, no matter how much they might claim they just want a "sensitive guy who listens"." Yes, there seems to be something interesting for most concerning soldiers. pl

CK

Humans are not herd animals?
Not a day goes by that I am not further schooled in some aspect of something. 67 years of schooling so far, a few more left before I can safely conclude that I know it all.


Babak Makkinejad

I think the "sensitive guy who listens" already has a boy-friend.

CK

Chateau Heartiste covers the alpha male and "game"
quite thoroughly.
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/
The point I was trying to make is that few men would wish to be legally burdened with a harem of young, entitled, graduate American feminists.
The Alpha, to use a fishing metaphor, is much more into catch, enjoy, and release than he is catch and take home and keep.

Fred

Yes, that is very true.

optimax

"Nice guys don't finish last, they finish second."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-ZAFiVoD9M

Fred

That's the best laugh I've had all day, thanks!

Fred

I think you understand neither alpha males nor American women.

Stephanie

Adding to this:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/05/how-polygamy-affects-your-wallet.html

"Their religious belief is that they'll bleed the beast, meaning the government," said Mark Shurtleff, Utah's attorney general. "They hate the government, so they'll bleed it for everything they can through welfare, tax evasion and fraud."

There may well be polygamous sects who don't seek to soak up taxpayer money. And all are entitled to welfare and other aid in times of need, including long term need. But in some cases said soaking is an actual matter of community policy.

It's also possible that there's a way to make polygamy legal in such a way that such abuses are curbed and the rights and interests of young people in isolated communities are protected. Fine with me. But it does seem plain that extending marriage rights to such parties may have ramifications for public policy in a way that simply adding a new class of couples doesn't.

Tyler

Sir,

I've been asked more "have you killed someone" with baited breath more by women than men. "The gentler sex" indeed.

Tyler

Oh, I'm familiar with Roissy. He's not as bad as Moldbug for using 100 words when one will do, but he can be a bit long winded for me.

There's something to be said for fishing and 'soft harems', but the perpetual adolescence of a different girl every night into your forties speaks of stunted development and is not as admirable as they think.

turcopolier

Tyler

Same here. pl

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