« Iran, Israel, Afghanistan, the ACA, Natanyahu - Obama Agonistes | Main | "Hollywood Producer/Spy Arnon Milchan Played A Key Role In Israel's Nuke Program" Business Insider »

27 November 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

stanley henning

We have met the enemy and they are us, and it may be too late to reverse this frightful trend.

David Habakkuk

Colonel Lang,

If Perle -- I presume that he is who you meant -- said that, it confirms my longstanding impression that he is a fool.

These people have learned nothing from Soviet history. For a long time, certainly, 'muffled zones' can be sustained. But in the end they collapse, and then there can be the mother and father of backlashes.

As I said on an earlier thread, if I was someone like Perle I would be cautious about sending people like Tyler to fight in unwinnable wars.

CK

The "drunk and wrecker" thesis is elaborated upon in Tim Weiner's 2007 Legacy of Ashes.
Mangold, Martin, and Weiss in there separate books paint a more nuanced but also more positive
picture.
I have read them all and others where Angleton is not the main topic. I honestly do not know what he was but he was intriguing.

turcopolier

David H.

The head of my supervisory committee in grad school was an anthropologist who was Jewish. I learned from watching him that superior intellect should not be assumed. Among the other people on the committee was a German leftist who was of an ancient Prussian military family. His wife was Jewish and this German nobleman was completely blind to the defects of his colleague who kept insisting that I must be of Jewish ancestry. It was his explanation for my brain. The graf kept saying that I was just like his Bundeswehr cousins. pl

Alba Etie

Mr Habakkuh ,
Your observation regarding Perle( or any other neocon "clean break " true believer) being ill advised starting another unwinnable war to send Tyler to is exactly on point . Our collective experience and subsequent outrage regarding the Iraq War is still palpable here in These United States . That is precisely why we did not go to Syria. While Tyler and me may very well wind up agreeing to disagree about gay marriage, and other issues we are locked step in not wanting another war in MENA . I must also agree with Tyler ,you & others that the AIAPC Hasbara historical grip on our MENA foreign policy has been exposed for what it is - counterproductive to These United States best interest . IMO it does not really matter if Mrs Greenspan,Robin Wright, or any other media Hasbara continues to slant the MSM news - there are just to many other outlets like here at SST not to continue to expose the stranglehold the American Likud has had on our Country . Further IMO - this has opened up the politic space to try to get a nuclear deal with Iran - despite Israel's protestations . We shall see.

Fred

I think Perle (as a representative neocon) has little to fear from men like Tyler. He's likely to get elected and help put an end (for awhile at least) to the careers of a number of neocons. It's the others who feel the same sense of futility and betrayal and won't express it in a forum like this, or in civic action, that men like Perle should fear. Perhaps that is why Obama and company are continuing the NSA data collection on Americans; and the inevitable profiling (undoubtably including that of veterans.)

David Habakkuk

Neil Richardson,

What you say raises a whole range of questions. As I wrote in response to a comment by 'Harper', my sense with a lot of the neocons is that they have evaded the problem that loyalties may conflict by convincing themselves that Israeli and American security interests are identical. If one cannot abandon a necessarily nonsensical proposition, it becomes difficult to think straight.

The result has been a total shambles, with ignoramuses like Wolfowitz and Perle deluding themselves into believing that American power could transform the Middle East in ways which people who actually had any relevant ‘local knowledge’ knew were pure fantasy. And, in any rational concept of the art, and science, of politics, it is ‘local knowledge’ which is critical: rather than abstract theorising of the kind that the late Albert Wohlstetter practiced.

The result is a situation which I -- lacking relevant ‘local knowledge’ – find difficult to read. But if indeed this Milchan episode is indicative of anything more than an Israeli spy preening himself, and if the Israeli government is foolish enough to disregard U.S. concerns about Chinese power, then issues to do with ‘dual loyalty’ may, ironically, become particularly difficult for neocons to handle.

turcopolier

DH

People like *erle, my academic committee chairmen and the rest are so filled with supercilious arrogance that they never consider the possibility that truly outrageous behavior can be self-defeating. *erle was so happy to tell me that i was screwed that he looked childish. He and several others had spent month talking to editors, producers, etc telling them the lie that i was a foreign agent for one of the Arab states. I know that to be true because one of the media men who posts here told me. then you have people like the German professor who are so beaten down and defeated that they just submit. pl pl

Castellio

Thanks for the answer and information.

Yes, Angleton is certainly intriguing. I was hoping that someone, somewhere, had done the heavy lifting on him that is needed.

Alba Etie

Fred
Is Richard Perle running for Congress?

Tyler

Really, flattered Fred that you think I'm uh 'civilized' enough to run for office, hah. It's something to look into but I think my personal opinions wouldn't fit neatly into any mold and I'd be pidgeonholed as another wackjob. Who knows what the future holds though?

I think Mr. Habakkuk and Alba Etie have the right of it though. You sow the storm, you reap the whirlwind.

David Habakkuk

Colonel Lang,

I think back to two Jews I knew, one slightly, one well, who had made it over here just before the outbreak of war – neither of whom had any trace of ‘supercilious arrogance’.

Both became professors of German literature, both had been sergeants.

As to the one I knew slightly, as students we knew that the two missing figures on his left hand had something do with his having served in Coastal Command. Only recently did I learn the full extraordinary story from the internet. His father had fought with the Czechoslovak Legion on the side of the Entente during the First World War. He himself volunteered for the Czech Army in 1941, but became a ‘tail-end Charlie’ with the Czech bomber squadron in the RAF.

The motto of 311 squadron was ‘never regard their numbers.’ Of around 2,000 Czechs who flew with the RAF during the war, 480 lost their lives, with 273 of them coming from this squadron.

In April 1942, at a time of crisis in the Battle of the Atlantic, 311 squadron was moved to hunt U-boats in the Bay of Biscay. On 29 September 1942 the Wellington in which Sergeant J.P. Stern was ‘tail-end Charlie’ was attacked by four Ju-88s. Severely wounded, he spent 14 hours in a dinghy before having the good fortune to be rescued.

The one I knew well was the father of a friend. I remember him once, in a moment of frustration with the inactivity of academic life, saying he wished he had been a general. At that time we knew that he made it here after spending six weeks in Buchenwald following Kristallnacht, and then been interned in the Isle of Man. He told us he had spent most of the war in the Pioneer Corps.

Only after he died did missing parts of the background appear. His father had distinguished himself in the Imperial Germany Army in the First World War. He himself had been part of the MI19 operation at Trent Park, which was the subject of a recent television programme which ‘Charles I’ mentioned on SST. Briefly, they put captured senior German officers in comfortable quarters in a country house, which was bugged with positively Soviet thoroughness. In the basement, a group of mainly German and Austrian refugees, including Sergeant P.F. Ganz, listened in and turned on the wax recording cylinders when appropriate.

Among other things, the transcripts of the conversations, of which a selection was published in 2007, show very clearly that the notion that the Wehrmacht was not heavily implicated in atrocities against Jews – and also Poles and Russians – was false.

(See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-469883/The-Genocide-Generals-secret-recordings-explode-myth-knew-Holocaust.html )

When Peter Stern wrote about his ‘homeland’, he meant Czechoslovakia. As for Peter Ganz, he threw up a professorship at Oxford to go back to work in Germany.

Against this background, the taboo on anti-Semitism has always seemed to me fundamental. I have watched its moral force being steadily eroded by cynical abuse with a combination of horror and incredulous amazement that those responsible could be so self-destructively stupid.

As to Richard Perle, when we had him on a television programme I co-produced back in 1986 it was something of a culture shock. I had simply never come across a Jew like that.

turcopolier

David habakkuk

Any thought that my disdain for the AIPAC/Zionist crowd extends to Jews in general would be incorrect. These fellows are special. Nationalism in any form is a killer and their political faith is one of the more deadly and ruthless forms of the nationalist disease. pl

Alba Etie

Tyler
Hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving . We did .
Remember we do agree on more then we disagree.
Merry Christmas too ...

Tyler

Mr. Habakkuk,

Also flattered. If I have my way the NYT, WaPo buildings and CNAC foundation are going to look like the US Embassy during the Fall of Saigon with fat neocon "policy analysts" hanging on to helicopter skids.

David Habakkuk

Tyler,

I rarely look at the NYT site, as in general the kind of reporting and analysis which I find useful are conspicuous by their absence there, but a couple of recent visits have made me think that their columnists may be being quietly surrounded by their own readers.

In a comment earlier on this thread on Tom Friedman’s piece on Ari Shavit’s book, I pointed to the scepticism of the comments which had the most endorsements from readers about the views alike of Friedman and of Shavit.

A recent column by Roger Cohen on the negotiations with Iran is even more interesting. In fairness, he has gone some considerable way to grasping the way in which Israel – with, regrettably, the support of the most politically active among American Jews – has been busily digging its own funeral. So he writes that ‘cheap allusions to 1938 are a poor template for Israel in the 21st century’: which is what I have thought for many years.

However, I wonder whether Cohen was prepared for the three most highly rated comments. Extracts:

From the first comment: ‘Maybe Israel would be better served if its leaders took an elementary course in diplomacy, instead of publicly exercising their supposed right to insult the head of one of the few governments in the world that is committed to Israel's survival, if (hopefully) not to its conquests.’

The second: ‘The NYT seems never to permit this to be expressed: Why does Israel have the right to nuclear weapons and Iran doesn't?’

From the third, whose author is clearly Jewish: ‘So I am the child of one of those “1938 people,” who, despite the deportation and murder of most of his family, eventually came to recognize the lethal consequences of fanaticism of the Left or the Right. Bibi mirrors Ahmadinejad's dehumanization of the Other. He would have us on the road to World War III, if Obama and John Kerry were to follow his urging to starve the Iranians into submission (and perhaps bomb their centrifuges as well).’

(See http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/26/opinion/cohen-israels-iran-dilemma.html?src=recg )

I do not want to build too much on this, but it seems to me that a ‘1975 moment’ may be redundant. Particularly if latent divisions within their own side can effectively exploited, the Israeli lobby may in the not very distant future perhaps be revealed as a ‘paper tiger’.

Tyler

Mr. Habakkuk,

Thank you for pointing me that way. The comments sections can surprise you in the NYT from time to time.

What do you think about the relationship between American Jewry and the Left in America? My personal opinion is that relationship would be as rife for angry exploitation as Israel demanding we send our children to die for their country.

Tyler

Had a smoked turkey. What a treat!

I'm glad to hear your Thanksgiving was well. As an adult, it truly is my favorite holiday.

Fred

Now that would make a great movie script. How about "Red, White and Blue Dawn"?

lally

Two words for Mr Richard Perle: Ahmed Chalabi

Babak Makkinejad

So did many Indians who went on to contribute to the nuclear sciences in India.

Babak Makkinejad

Doesn't the US Law carry death penalty in this case?

Babak Makkinejad

Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans have no understanding of religious sentiments that informs Western Eurasians and North Americans.

Their interactions with Israel will be purely transactional but correct in the diplomatic sense.

Indian Hindus, on the other hand, are in awe of Israel and they are foolish enough to succumb to their emotions in regards to Israel.

turcopolier

babak

"Doesn't the US Law carry death penalty in this case?" The Espionage Act of 1917 was the basis of the Rosenberg executions in a nuclear espionage case. The statute of limitations may have run out. I think it is 12 years for this statute but the lawyers will tell us. pl

Babak Makkinejad

To your point against extremist nationalism; extra-solar planets in the Milky Way galaxy are being discovered and it is very likely that in the not too distant future a suitably large number of earth-like planets could be discovered.

Further scientific and engineering advances ma make it possible for each nation or tribe to emigrate from Earth to any of these extra-solar planets - where they could live their nationalistic delusions to the full-extent - being safe from all the other untrustworthy and despicable nations.

Other nations, less paranoid, may decide to stay put on Earth to benefit from the diversity of the nations and cultures and the richness that they bring to any and all.

The comments to this entry are closed.

My Photo

February 2021

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28            
Blog powered by Typepad