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09 September 2013

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Alba Etie

KSH
I am one who was willing to impeach President Bush for what was in my opinion a war of aggression in Iraq. I am also quite willing to impeach President Obama for what I would consider another elective war of aggression in Syria-should he go after Assad. I do know that there are many scholars and international lawyer here on SST and elsewhere that would say that Bushcheney got their AUMF , and BHO could potentially get his AUMF for Syria as well . But to that I would say that if the intelligence was a pack of lies for both Iraq & Syria - then why not start impeachment proceedings - since that is the indictment part of removing our Executive , and then let the Senate be the trier of facts to test if the cooked intelligence willfully done is not a war of aggression otherwise .
PS - I also thought that President Clinton should not have been impeached for having a girlfriend .

Alba Etie

Col Lang
Many of us could be persuaded that USA citizenship should be earned , - what would be your criteria ?
Mine would be some type of national service.
Owning property perhaps.
A test for Civics - how does the government work ?
A History test ?
this is a very good idea I think ..

Alba Etie

IZ
Will early national elections be called in Turkey ? And if so is there any small hope that Erdogan and entourage might be defeated in this election , or at least made to mitigate the Islamist agenda ?

Babak Makkinejad

That is what I do not understand either.

He was elected on a Peace platform and had no political obligation to go propose to go war in Syria.

Did someone advise him to do so?

Was it his own choice?

And why isn't anyone fired for this?

The beaver

Well Well Well you have to give it to HWR.
They beat the OPCW/UN team in their revelations ( insert sarcasm):
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/syria_cw0913_web_0.pdf

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, checkmate:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-100913.html

Bill H

I'm pretty sure you've read Heinlein; think I recall seeing his name bandied about here. In "Starship Troopers" he postulates a society where only those who have successfully completed a term of national service are entitled to vote. Such service is not limited to military, can be administrative or other civil service, but it must be completed.

In discussion of why the system was used he says "because it works" and other systems, including universal voting, failed miserably. I always thought his point, fiction or not, was well taken, and this was back in the fifties.

I also rather thought that his system might work a lot better than our present one.

YT

My Canadian friend,

The only problem here is that none of the players in this "Theater" see eye-to-eye.

Huge egos.

turcopolier

AE

IMO Heinlein's prescription of national service as a pre-requisite for the franchise would be my choice. In Heinlein's version of this such service must voluntary, a couple of years in length, onerous and dangerous. Military service is only one of the possibilities and it should be the responsibility of the government to find some possibility of service for one and all regardless of physical infermities. All the other aspects of citizenship would be unaffected by the absence of voting rights in an individual. IMO there would be many who would decide that they did not need to vote. Only the devoted deserve the vote. pl

elkern

Seems to me that the "what's different this time" question cuts both ways. Many regulars here (SST) were quite opposed to the invasion of Iraq, but I don't recall much discussion of Impeachment in that case.

I think there are two parts to the problem you're pointing out.

One is the worsening partisan/cultural divide in this country. There are many roots to this, but frankly, I place much of the blame for the decline in civility on the vitriol spewed by Rush Limbaugh & his ilk.

The other effect is that the excuses for this "intervention" are aimed more at liberals & women. Bush/Cheney played the R2P card too, but the real "sell" for Iraq was 1) redirected vengeance for 9-11, and 2) absurd claims of threats to our "homeland" (mushrooms). In both cases, AIPAC was in favor of war, and the MSM jumped on board (I don't think that's a coincidence, but the linkage is fuzzy).

Many liberals who were rightly skeptical of Bush/Cheney "evidence" were swayed by Powell's UN show. Who's playing that role now? Kerry? McCain? hahahahahaha, oh, that hurts...

elkern

Clinton was impeached for being a Democrat & President at the same time.

YT

RE: The content of world culture and civilization is now disdained in the US. Such business oriented skills as "rhetoric are valued over the humanities.

What a Great Loss for the youth in America.

Col. sir, "Rhetoric" is for the Weasels & I for one am [unfortunately] acquainted with a great number of them...

nick b

Starship Troopers, a fun movie, especially if you're not fond of insects. I own it on dvd.
Anyway, perhaps our system of voting is flawed for another reason? It's not mandatory. Only about 60% of eligible Americans are registered to vote, and of them just less than 60% actually come out to vote. How can you have tyranny of the majority, when the majority does not vote?

Col., I would ask how Locke's idea of property arising out of labor fits into your view of 'stakeholders'? I value your opinions.

turcopolier

DaveGood

"In other words, unless you have served in furtherence of this, or the previous regime, your vote or views don't count?. You really want that? DaveGood" You are inventing your own text and attributing it to others. Nobody said that except you. such qualification for the franchise would be for life without reference to who is in power. pl

turcopolier

NickB

Paul Verhoeven, the producer of that abysmally bad film admitted that he had not read the book. Have you? I am not interested in any idea of a qualification to vote based on ownership of anything on any basis. pl

Babak Makkinejad

You need to have some built-in mechanism to protect the young women in such a setting - specially from those in the hierarchy.

turcopolier

Babak

What do you suggest, some sort of nunnery? I am not interested in protecting anyone's virginity. The crime of rape should remain a felonious assault. pl

nick b

No Sir, I have not read the book. But please don't mistake that for criticism, I really did enjoy the movie. So bad, it's good. Do you recommend the book? I enjoy a good read.

You mentioned above "In olden times, the concept of citizen was far more narrowly understood and the franchise restricted to "stakeholders" in the social order as it was conceived by the founders and framers"
I have always understood this to mean owners of real property. Have I misunderstood?

Medicine Man

US credibility has been on the ropes since Bush II. Hearing people in Obama's cabinet recycle Dubya's faulty rhetoric is just a reminder of the state of things.

turcopolier

NickB

I read the book when it was published. I think I was 19. I do recommend the book. It is a good adventure story and an interesting political tract. the movie is absurd and terrible. I prefer "Troll Hunter" as an escape into the absurd. pl

Medicine Man

I've heard good things about Troll Hunter and it is on my list. *sigh* I wonder what Alan Farrell would have to say about that one?

turcopolier

MM

I just now wrote to ask him for a review. He is still sulking in his cabin/tent on Stalling's Mountain at Glasgow, Virginia. pl

Babak Makkinejad

I think that Iranian leaders are always ready for a deal but the deal acceptable to them is not on the table.

Babak Makkinejad

No, there is a need to make a situation in which Power will not be used to give access to young women by older men while the young men are not getting it.

As is today, young men in US have nothing, while young women use their sexual powers to the hilt.

In this "National Service" scheme, young men will be subject to the discipline and power of older men while young women can "get away with it."

Babak Makkinejad

Rhetoric is being give a bad wrap here; it was part of the Platonic Trivium and to this day it is taught all over the world where intellectual education has survived - even in the religious schools of Qum, Najaf, Cairo it is taught.

Its abuse by propagandist does not lessen its importance as a tool for the Inellect.

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