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21 August 2013


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Man, it was a terrible time..no joke Steve, at Lejune...and, as you point out, and as I heard, at Pendleton. Walking around the base after dark at Lejune was a scary thing. Everyone carrying something. One moved quickly...and often in packs.


PL and All, are there any examples of situations where you believe it would be OK to disobey orders and break with "good order and discipline" of the military. Or actual historical examples where this was done and OK in your moral/ethical framework?



Somehow I think you are being a wiseass. A US service member is obliged under US military law to refuse to obey an illegal order and to report the attempt to order something illegal. I have written this many times on SST. Go look at the punitive articles of the UCMJ for examples for the sort of things that you are looking for. Some other examples would be violations of US law concerning US government funds. So far as I know Chelsea never sought to report things she saw in computer traffic that she may have thought to be violations of US law. As I said to someone else, killing is not an offense when it occurs in combat. Unlawful killing is an offense. pl

William R. Cumming


Medicine Man

It is not hard to find some examples of killing the military finds criminal. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders

I recall Col. Lang commenting on the above story at the time.

One assumes that some men broke ranks in order to inform on the men committing those crimes. It is also not unreasonable to assume that any who disobeyed orders to avoid along with what is shown above would have defensible ground in the military courts.

It seems to me the military has a vested interest in preserving good order whether the subject(s) be naive and careless or crazed and brutal.



There were also several such trials that resulted from incidents in the US Army and USMC in Iraq. p



If sentence was "to encourage the others." should not someone at the command level receive punishment? There seems to be a major command/management issue here, too.

Alba Etie

Col Lang
Wasn't Sgt Bales just given in effect a life sentence for murdering civilians in Afghanistan ?


Col. Lang-

"Lind is is a charlatan. His generations of warfare crap finally wore thin and he went broke here"

Bravo Sir! From a strategic theory perspective of course. Lind seems to be in the middle of yet another re-launch of his reified and hopelessly confused attempt at doctrinal speculation . . . let the unsuspecting beware!

As to the latest Manning turn, it seems very much calculated to gain the optimal level of pity from this White House . . . changing the focus from "what he did" to "who Manning is" . . . almost tailor-made for a presidential pardon . . . ?


Bales pled guilty. They have to decide if he gets life with or without parole.


Poor Billy Budd had to be sacrificed for the discipline of the ship. The necessity of personal tragedy for the greater good. Wouldn't put Manning in the same Christ-like category.



I dunno. Chelsea looks pretty good in a blond wig and makeup. that's an SF joke. pl



Chelsea will be popular with the men in jail.


Not trying to be a smart ass, Im just trying to learn

David Habakkuk

Surely there is a point which needs to be made about honour -- as well as simply about punishment. So it would seem more appropriate that Manning be dishonourably discharged now, rather than at the end of the sentence.


David Habakkuk

Yes, IMO he/she should be discharged as soon as the appeals process ends and for the reason that you give. pl

William R. Cumming

So who leaked the request for a sex change by Manning? And why is intended by referring to Manning as Chelsea?



Chelsea says that is her name and her lawwyer, Coombs, refers to her that way. pl


I just now read about the sex change thing. Chelsea ... good grief, this is turning into a travesty.


Not knowing where to post this but it has been reported that J J Pollard has written a letter to the J Post lamenting the recent prisoner release (amongst other things). Titled "Restoring Israel to greatness" and dated for 16th august, 2013. Can't seem to find it though. Thought you might find it interesting in the context of betrayal, jail-time, a dd etc.


Yes, especially given the games the lawyers are starting to play with regards to requests for hormone therapy to physically change sexes.


But tunde, it was just a google search away ^^


David Habakkuk


Absolutely. Sometimes I do begin to think the lunatics have taken over the asylum. (This is not British superciliousness -- we have very similar problems, although they manifest themselves in slightly different forms, in the U.K. as in the U.S.)

What I fear will happen is that the case will become, even more than it already is, a kind of bizarre arena for 'culture wars' to get fought out. It could easily end up as a weird kind of 'soap opera' which could run for some considerable time. And it is a can of worms in which the U.S. military really has a strong interest in not getting involved. They really should eject Bradley/Chelsea, as a kind of foreign body, asap.

His/her predelictions and personality really ought to be marginal to the whole affair. The key issue is that military discipline has to be preserved. This ought to be a matter on which all kinds of different people -- whatever their views of gays, transexuals etc etc -- can find common ground.

Mark Logan

I believe he's "sealing the deal" for protective custody with this.

It's a gamble. Would make getting the earliest release date all but impossible for most people. He has "friends" who he helped to become famous to apply pressure though.

William R. Cumming

Thanks PL but does that mean official records changed NOW?

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