Awkward for NARAL

"Ohio is one of 38 states to have a fetal homicide law on the books, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. The law in Ohio makes it a crime to murder a person "who is or was carried in the womb of another."

The state's fetal homicide law was used in 2011 against Dominic Holt-Reid who tried to force his girlfriend to get an abortion at gunpoint in Ohio. Holt-Reid pleaded guilty to an attempted murder charge and is serving 13 years in prison.

The most high-profile fetal homicide trial in the United States occurred in 2004, when Scott Peterson was convicted of murdering his pregnant wife and unborn son and sentenced to death in California.

On Thursday, Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGinty, who has jurisdiction over all felony cases for Cleveland, said he intends to seek aggravated murder charges against Castro once the case is formally transferred to his office. Aggravated murder charges could carry the death penalty."  Yahhat i can only point out the oo News

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The depth of my contempt and loathing for Ariel Castro is profound.  I hope the state of Ohio prosecutes him for everything they find feasible, including the fetal murder charge.

Having said that, I feel I must point to what appears to me to be a logical (but apparently not legal) conflict between Ohio's apparent concession of "human being" status to an unborn but living fetus and my perception of the position of orgnizations like NARAL who maintain that a living fetus is not a human being and that it can be disposed of by the mother up to the moment of birth if she wishes to do so.

Thereafter, according to the law in many places, the newborn becomes a living human being and the act of killing it becomes homicide.

Are there not logical inconsistencies in these "rules?"

I am sure that groups like NOW and NARAL wish to see Castro punished, but do they accept Ohio's definition of an unborn child as human?  pl 

 http://news.yahoo.com/murder-case-against-cleveland-kidnapping-suspect-tough-prove-144332390.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57583777/judge-weighs-death-penalty-for-accused-cleveland-kidnapper-rapist/

Comments

[JohnH]

Meanwhile the grossly negligent owner of the West, TX fertilizer plant that exploded, killing 55 walks free.

When prominent religious organizations and the right to life movement finally get serious about punishing all murder--whether corporate, governmental, or individual--I'll begin to have some respect for them. As it stands now, they are obsessing about life at the margin, willfully ignoring the big stuff.

[jonst]

My legal opinion, however one comes down on the issue, the legal inconsistency is obivous. Yet stubbornly denied. For the moment. By some.

[Will Reks]

I doubt its a big issue for them at all. I see many on the pro-life side bring this up as a logical flaw when its somewhat irrelevant to the debate. The Supreme Court ruled on the issue, flawed as their reasoning might have been. I think the Naral/PP supporters would simply say that choice is the point. The woman had no choice in her pregnancy and whether that baby was going to be born or not.

[turcopolier]

will reks

IMO there is no such thing as settled law. pl

[psc]

There have been over 40 million abortions in America since Roe V. Wade.

Add up all of the industrial deaths in America, plus all of the gun murders, and sprinkle in all of the dead from the Iraq war (civilians included) and these deaths are not a fraction of the toll from legalized infanticide.

"Life at the margin and ignoring big stuff?"

Standing up for the weakest in our society, even after the scandals of late, makes me proud to be Roman Catholic.

[PeterHug]

IMO this is prosecutorial overreach that has some significant chance of backfiring. I live in Ohio, and I would personally never convict someone on a charge of fetal murder because I don't think that any such charge is consistent with the rest of the legal framework surrounding abortion (legal in Ohio and I personally think reasonably so).

To be clear - the reason I would be unable to convict on that charge has nothing to do with my personal beliefs about abortion as such, but everything to do with the inconsistency. I doubt that I'm alone in this.

I also don't quite understand why the prosecutor decided to file these charges - it's not as if there aren't a wide variety of other charges that are available for use in this case...

[trooper]

Amen.

[Grimgrin]

The inconsistency is, as far as I know, the point of fetal personhood laws. Establishing a fetus as a person with legal is part of a strategy to restrict access to abortion.

Here's Rand Paul talking about it: http://nationalprolifealliance.com/rlacv_video.aspx

The argument from the pro-choice perspective is that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and forcing a miscarriage/abortion would both be violations of an individual's right to autonomy and control over their own body. They would probably disagree with prosecution under fetal personhood laws, while considering it reasonable to have a criminal law providing for the punishment of a forced termination of a pregnancy.

[jonst]

In general...I agree with the Col's observation. However, in the particular, in the case of a court split down the middle on many things, we are one death away from many things being opened up for discussion again. Let one of the five, so called, conservative Justices die in the next three years and you will see big changes.

[Anna-Marina]

I guess that as a staunch protector of life you are also for free health care for all children and pregnant women and for pregnancy-related paid leave. Before telling a woman how many children she must have, as a man you should demand the immediate revision of the multitude of chemicals that the corporate world dumps in our water, air, and food; the horrific pollution produces birth abnormalities and abortions of desirable children. Too many men want to boast about their principles on cheap instead of making real life-supporting differences that would protect children and women.

[Anna-Marina]

Thank you for the voice of reason

[turcopolier]

Anna-Marina

Don't like men much, heh? pl

[r whitman]

Modern technology has bypassed much of the abortion issue. You can buy RU-486 from your local pot dealer and no sorority house is lacking an adequate supply.

[Anna-Marina]

This is a delicate theme, but you can be sure that you are wrong.

[turcopolier]

anna-marinaB
A delicate subject? Why" because your feelings might be hurt? What about all the men that women think nothing of crapping on? pl

[optmax]

Abortion inducing herbs have been used by women for over two thousand years. There will always be abortions and we don't want to return to the days of illegal abortions.

[Abu Sinan]

The basic question is when is the foetus alive? It cannot be alive for a would be killer of it, and not alive for a female who wishes to terminate the pregancy. Either it is alive or it isnt, and who the person is who wants to do something to it cannot matter.

If it is alive for Castro to kill it, then it would also have to be alive if a mother decides to have an abortion. NOW can play with words all they want. In this situation, if they support the prosecution of Castro they must also admit that any woman getting an abortion of a foetus of the same age is killing the child too.

A child cannot be alive, but alive at the same time.

[Fred]

"Too many ... want to boast about their principles on cheap instead of making real life-supporting differences that would protect...."

Apparently the rest of us men are not worthy of protecting, or having free health care?

[Stephanie]

I add my thanks, Grimgrin. Well put.

[Anna-Marina]

PL,
You simply misunderstood me again. If you wish, I like men, particularly the bright, courageous, and passionate men whose passion extends to their principles.

[Anna-Marina]

My comment was narrowed for the statement of a proud Catholic, which was about his pride and not about the poor women's needs (the wealthy women always have access to any procedures). A poor and pregnant woman with a child is the most defenseless human being.
A universal care for all children, women, and men would be a decent thing to create for a country as rich and powerful as the US.

[Fred]

"A universal care for all children, women, and men would be a decent thing to create ... "

This is very true, however it is not 'free'. It would be better to define just what 'universal care' you are willing to have. Someone has to pay the cost.

[Lesly]

McGinty should have no problem getting the DP reviewed. The Castros didn't waste their time trying to kill the not-people.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330787,00.html

"Cutts, 30, was convicted of aggravated murder in the death of the nearly full-term female fetus, which carries the possible death penalty. […] The jury found him not guilty of aggravated murder in Davis' death, a count that includes intent to kill with prior calculation. But they convicted him of a lesser charge of murder in her death."

[Tyler]

Goodness knows that without abortion a woman might have to take responsibility for her actions, the poor dears. The Left loves itself some freedoms without responsibility, known colliqually as anarchy.

Sorry, but you forfeit the moral high ground when you talk about killing innocents. The level of delusion among the Left in what they do is par for the course.

[Anna-Marina]

Exactly, this is why mothers need to have a choice of how many children they are able to support