Shortsighted Wars - Sale

"When we decide to use force to intervene, it is usually after we get emotionally roused, have a sense of being terribly affronted or experience a sudden explosion mass inflammability that forces irresistibly into war. In these cases, we intervene not on the basis of cautious, prudent or carefully measured deliberation and we avoid carefully thinking out what we plan to achieve. As an example, we entered an imperialist war against Spain based on our outrage over having an American warship in Cuba bombed, an allegation that later proved not to be true. We invaded the Philippines, and then waged war on their inhabitants who, at the time of our arrival, were looking forward to their freedom from foreign occupiers. Instead, we became one."  Sale

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Comments

[Babak Makkinejad]

Mr. Sale:

I think that murderous tyrant, Stalin, was the leader who defeated NAZI Germany; not the United States and not United Kingdom.

When the slaves were freed, so were the Federalists who ran with their Imperial Project - John Hay, who was Secretary of State during the Spanish American War, called it "a splendid little war".

Everyone like short victorious wars (not just Americans).

Such wars are perfect vehicles for indulging in our emotional Love-Hate Relationship with the rest of mankind.

[turcopolier]

Babak

I am inclined to think that without the Anglo-American allies' efforts in North Africa, Italy and France Germany might well have defeated the USSR in spite of Hitler's "genius." Germany lost 250,000 men in Tunisia alone. pl

[Babak Makkinejad]

Yes, you are right.

Also the land-bridge across Iran to USSR for war materiale.

[turcopolier]

Babak

And they lost their "hat, ass and overcoat" in the Bulge as well. pl

[William R. Cumming]

Well I suppose to ask what were America's longsighted wars would beg the question?

IMO a good argument is that the common man and/or woman in America rarely favored war as an option unless driven by elites or interests to believe they would somehow be better off than before. That benefit cost analysis of warfare is usually never truly measured correctly including the contributions lost by those lost in the wars.

Perhaps wars are as much a product of certain endocrines as they are of rationale thought.

Exactly how the USA goes to war and for what reasons is worthy of the deepest study. I think the notion that wars are fought because they can be rather than they should be would be more closely analyzed them some would like.

[turcopolier]

WRC

I would nominate the War of Independence, the Mexican War and WW2 as worthwhile. pl

[Trent]

Pat, Mexican War was longsighted because it gave us Texas and CA?

[fanto]

Sir, you are too well educated and informed to say that Stalin defeated Nazis - he would not be able to do that without the West's help, sorry to correct you on that, usually I agree with you.

[turcopolier]

trent

Texas, CA, parts of other states. we should have taken more of Mexico like Baja. pl

[Trent]

Pat, Baja? I never took you for a surfer.

[r whitman]

My Mexican friends call our Mexican war "The War of North American Aggression".Every Mexican schoolkid learns about it in History class. They dream of a modern day Reconquista through immigration, both legal and illegal, to the lost territories.

[The Twisted Genius]

Trent,

Here's one reason we should have taken Baja.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNFEaylmw8Q

[Tyler]

Sir,

Agreed, if only to give Arizona a coastline and access to Cholla Bay & the Sea of Cortez!

[Walrus]

fanto, there is sufficient evidence to prove your assertion unfounded. The Russians had already stopped the Germans and started pushing them back by the time tonnages of Western stores incrEased. most of what we sent was crap anyway.

[YT]

Mr. Sale,

RE: "This occurs because we don’t see our opponents accurately."

RE: "We are so excitable as a people, and we are thrust forward by our belief that we are always right and act only for the good of the world, and we erect a caricature of our opponents and add hateful features in order to lay a false groundwork for our action."

I know how the Col. gets dissed with us quoting from various tomes de re militari.

But here goes...

故曰：知己知彼百戰不貽。

Thus it is said: One who knows the enemy & knows himself will not be in danger in a hundred battles.

不知彼而知己， 一勝一負。

One who does not know the enemy but knows himself will sometimes win, sometimes lose.

不知彼不知己， 每戰必敗。

One who does not know the enemy & does not know himself will be in danger in every battle.

[turcopolier]

walrus

"2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[16]

Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2½ ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminium, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.[17]"

Wiki on "Lend Lease"

[fanto]

Walrus, where is the sufficient evidence? I would like to see that. And I do not believe that the convoys to Murmansk were all 'crap'.

[mbrenner]

More On Kissinger

THE TOP TEN KISSINGER QUOTES

1.Soviet Jews:"The emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union is not an objective of American foreign policy. And if they put Jews into gas chambers in the Soviet Union, it is not an American concern. Maybe a humanitarian concern." (link [1])

2.Bombing Cambodia: "[Nixon] wants a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. He doesn't want to hear anything about it. It's an order, to be done. Anything that flies on anything that moves." (link [2]) (Emphasis added)

3.Bombing Vietnam: "It's wave after wave of planes. You see, they can't see the B-52 and they dropped a million pounds of bombs ... I bet you we will have had more planes over there in one day than Johnson had in a month ... each plane can carry about 10 times the load of World War II plane could carry." (link [3])

4.Khmer Rouge: "How many people did (Khmer Rouge Foreign Minister Ieng Sary) kill? Tens of thousands? You should tell the Cambodians (i.e., Khmer Rouge) that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won't let that stand in the way. We are prepared to improve relations with them. Tell them the latter part, but don't tell them what I said before." (from November 26, 1975 Meeting [4] With Thai Foreign Minister.)

5.Dan Ellsberg: "Because that son-of-a-bitch—First of all, I would expect—I know him well—I am sure he has some more information---I would bet that he has more information that he's saving for the trial. Examples of American war crimes that triggered him into it_It's the way he'd operate. Because he is a despicable bastard." (Oval Office tape, July 27, 1971)

6.Robert McNamara: "Boohoo, boohoo _ He's still beating his breast, right? Still feeling guilty. " (Pretending [5] to cry, rubbing his eyes.)

7.Assassination: "It is an act of insanity and national humiliation to have a law prohibiting the President from ordering assassination." (Statement [6] at a National Security Council meeting, 1975)

8.Chile: "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." (link [7])

9.Illegality-Unconstitutionality: "The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." (from March 10, 1975 Meeting With Turkish Foreign Minister Melih Esenbel in Ankara, Turkey)

10.Himself: "Americans like the cowboy who rides all alone into the town, the village, with his horse and nothing else. This amazing, romantic character suits me precisely because to be alone has always been part of my style or, if you like, my technique." (November 1972 Interview with Oriana Fallaci)

Sources:

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/11/us/politics/11nixon.html?_r=0
[2] http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB123/

[3] http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB263/19720415-1130-Nixon.pdf
[4] http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK-11-26-75.pdf [5] http://www.salon.com/2002/12/05/kissinger_3/
[6] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Kissinger
[7] http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/henryakis143264.html

[William R. Cumming]

Thanks CP and like I stated a FACIST at heart, HK that is!

[Neil Richardson]

Walrus:

The evidence that have emerged since the end of Cold War (from the Soviet archives) cast doubt to your interpretation. Historians have barely scratched the surface of the new material, but the Soviets would have likely sued for peace had there not been Lend-Lease. You're also grossly underestimating the impact of raw materials and fuel supplies in war effort. There was an massive economic dislocation during the most critical 24 months after the start of Barbarossa

[William R. Cumming]

I would argue that Hitler came all to close to success in 1940-41 and few historians understand how a very close run it was for Britain and the Soviets.

[YT]

Prof. Brenner, Mr. Cumming,

"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."

As quoted in The New York Times (28th. Oct. '73)

Yes, fascist at heart indeed...