The anti-clericals and the gay lobby vs Francis

"Father Lombardi repeated assertions by a prominent human rights campaigner that there had been “no compromise by Cardinal Bergoglio with the dictatorship.” The debate has simmered in Argentina, with journalists there publishing articles and books that appear to contradict Cardinal Bergoglio’s account of his actions. These accounts draw not only on documents from the period, but also on statements by priests and lay workers who clashed with Cardinal Bergoglio. "  NY Times

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There are always anti-clericals.  They hate priests .  They have always hated priests.  Their prejudice is dignified by its persistence.  Mark Twain was among them.  "Mankind will only be free when the last priest is hanged in the guts of the last king."  (either "Innocents Abroad" or "A Connecticutt Yankee at King Arthur's Court")

On the other hand we have the gay lobby.  These folks have been so succesfull at recruiting support from media gay people, media corporations and the congress that it has become axiomatic to say that any opposition to their program of normalization will be attacked with the fury and deceptive self assurance that is usually associated with AIPAC.

Francis does not believe that gay marriage is justifiable for his church, therefore Francis must be attacked in the most horrendous terms.  Francis must be said to be a fascist and supporter of fascists.  How contemptible.

pl 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/world/europe/pope-francis-praises-benedict-urges-cardinals-to-spread-gospel.html?_r=0

Comments

[michael rush]

Bergoglio didn't merely oppose same-sex marriage for his church, he opposed it for the entire country of Argentina in 2010. If gays are slow to warm to him it is due in part to the hateful things he said about gay marriage then-- the work of the devil. The devil--does he use such langauage in discussing any other people?

[turcopolier]

Michael Rush

Are you gay? If so, say so. Be proud. Homosexual behavior is anathema in the Catholic Church. You expect him to repent? pl

[JohnH]

The deck is stacked against Pope Francis. An old man trying to face down an entrenched bureaucracy, seeking above all to protect itself. The powers that be will resist him tooth and nail on most everything...unless he tries to roll back democracy in Latin America. I for one hope that that is not why he was selected as Pope.

[Tyler]

What do you expect when a bunch of homosexual priests decided it was time to rape boys? That he'd want to double down on homosexuality?

[Townie76]

Pat, while I do not agree with Pope Francis secular position; he is not only entitled to his position but it is a position which is in keeping not only with the history, both secular and sectarian, of western society; but also reflect the prevailing theology of 2000 plus years. To condemn him because you do not agree with his arguments is wrong; if you wish to refute his position do those with intellectual arguments and vigor. Somehow as we have progressed we have forgotten that those on the opposite side of an argument in most cases do so with good intentions. I hate political correctness, regardless of the persuasion.

[turcopolier]

townie 76

He has no "secular position" other than as monarch of Vatican City as a state. That is as big as the Lexington Country Club Golf Course. pl

[Cronin]

I thought the priests-kings-entrails line was Shelley's; apparently Twain used it, too.... UPDATE: A quick Google search has it as originally being Diderot's.

[turcopolier]

cronin

bless them. i am revealed as ignorant. pl

[turcopolier]

townie 76

His position against gay marriage is not "secular." It is MORAL. pl

[Babak Makkinejad]

The Catholic Church is not alone in her view of homosexuality as anything but a perversion; Muslims and Hindus concur.

And my understanding has been that Africans and Chinese - among many others - do not look favorably on that either.

[Babak Makkinejad]

All:

What is it with you guys (Euro-Americans)?

First you poke your noses into the affairs of other people's womenfolk (largely Muslims nowadays) and now you turn acceptance of a form of sexual perversion a touchstone of authentic morality.

What will be next?

Me and my sheep are a family?

[The Twisted Genius]

"bless them. i am revealed as ignorant."

PL, you gave me a good laugh. I envisioned you making this grand revelation while executing a deep theatrical bow... with a sly smirk on your face.

[Jake]

Amazing, just amazing...

We attack a humble man of faith with rumor and hearsay for personal self-serving interests. What a sad state of affairs there is no shame and no honor left anymore.... So which one of these righteous critics has no sin to cast the stones? Woe to you Pharisees and Sadducees...

Is this what we have become?

[optimax]

According to this wiki peice the quote originated with Jean Meslier. He was a Catholic priest that wrote a 600 page tome discovered after his death promoting aethism. Voltaire changed him into a deist in his published extract of Mesliers writing. It's an interesting story about who gets bragging rights for being the first aethiest of the Enlightenment.

[turcopolier]

Babak

Will it make you happy? pl

[The Twisted Genius]

Before condemning Pope Francis and the Catholic Church because of their stand on marriage and sexuality, one should attempt to understand the Church's teachings in these matters. Start with "Humanae Vitae." The sacrament of marriage is a union of a man, woman and God for the purpose of creating life. It has nothing to to with the secular legal status of marriage. Sex outside of the sacrament of marriage is a sin, be it premarital, extramarital, heterosexual or homosexual. Both contraception and sterilization are sins as is, of course, abortion.

The sacredness of life, love and marriage as taught by the Church is not easy to comprehend. I still don't fully grasp it and I doubt I ever will. That's probably why one has to accept all this on faith to be called a practicing Roman Catholic. The rest of us
(who may call ourselves Catholic) are imperfect sinners and lapsed Catholics at best, but still worthy of Divine Mercy.

Gay marriage, as a Catholic sacrament, is simply incomprehensible. IMHO the secular legal status of marriage is another matter altogether.

[optimax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier

That's what i thought. I did forget it.

This a video on Mondoweiss showing a Green Party member of Australia's Parliament for accepting a propaganda study mission to Israel that was sponsered by some jewish group. There is a little heckling going in in the nearly vacant chamber.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/chambers-parliamentarians-criticizes.html

Not even Rand Paul (at least he doesn't have 2 first names) would rip congress about our unjust backing of Israel's aggresion.

[Tyler]

Honestly I'm seeing the same lines of attack for pedophilia that were used to make homosexuality "acceptable" popping up more and more.

[johnf]

Speaking as a Catholic, I am not surprised the Catholic Church has enemies.

Child abuse is an abomination but I do not think this is why it is the target of so much hatred and venom. Most secular institutions dealing with orphans and "problem" children had similar problems in the 80's and 90's but proved themselves to be much more adept and fleet-footed in dealing with (or hushing up) the problem. The Church is both cumbersome in its movements and also hindered by its Christian duty to forgive those who seem to be entirely contrite of their sins.

The reason for the hatred is much deeper than that. The Church is a huge organisation. Probably the only institution it can be compared with is the Chinese Communist Party (that itself has recently gone through a hidden and byzantine election). The Catholic Church has made itself enemies in the West simply by what it stands for, what it stands against. It speaks out fiercely on poverty. It is involved on a colossal scale with relieving poverty and sickness in the Third World and providing education. In a West dominated by a free market ideology and Wall St, the public stance of the Church on such matters is not welcomed. No other large "Western" organisation dares promote such views any longer.

And The Church has very strong views on peace. It opposed the Iraq War. (American Catholics I know often seem baffled when I mention this. In Britain our priests told us repeatedly in the lead up to and during the war that The Church was against it). The Church speaks to the Palestinians and refuses to accept the Israeli word on everything. It is also deeply concerned by the terrible fate of millions of Christians after Western intervention in Iraq and Syria and Libya.

There is no doubt that the Church has serious enemies. When I look at them I am proud to be a Catholic.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

IMO the symbolism of the Holy Family -- Joseph, Mary, Jesus -- reflects the concept of a heterosexual family, father, mother, child. I do not doubt that in the world in which Christianity first found itself, some pagans engaged in homosexuality as a form of nature worship or whatever and this was considered "normal" for them but taboo for Christians. Christians it would appear rejected this behavior as emphasized in the Holy Family and iconography associated with it.

As to the extreme right wing in Argentina I can tell a story. A late friend of mine was a well known professor there and held traditional Roman Catholic beliefs as did much of the country. He was conservative but an opponent of extremists.

During the Argentine Terror, fomented by the Montoneros, he was alerted that he was on a hit list prepared by a certain extremist right wing death squad and advised to leave the country forthwith. He did so and taught in Europe for a number of years until he could return safely after the Terror was suppressed.

The right wing death squad had a certain French priest as its spiritual advisor. This priest had been in Alegeria in earlier times and was linked to the Cite Catholique group formed by Fr. Jean Ousset. Ousset, in turn, was a disciple of the French "Catholic" Fascist Charles Maurras of Action Francaise. Maurras himself was condemned by the Catholic Church in part because Maurras had powerful connections in esoteric and lodge circles and did ot reflect authentic Catholic doctrine. We can think of "Papus", the code name of an esoteric leader as an example of a close Maurras friend.

There is a twist, it was the spiritual advisor who helped draw up the hit list...but he gave it, through a channel, to the terrorist left so they could do the dirty work of murdering my friend and thus covering the right wing death squad but achieving its objective in eliminating a critic.

There is another twist, the French "Catholic" Fascist Cite Catholique and Ousset were heavily financed by Banque Worms. Those who know something about the historic role of Banque Worms in French Fascism will understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cit%C3%A9_catholique

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banque_Worms

As I indicated on the other thread, Argentina is a complicated place as is the world generally. The Holy Father well understands this and no doubt drew correct conclusions many years ago.

[William R. Cumming]

My hope has always been that all religions denounce violence against innocents. And of course all religions should refuse to accept donations of those it views as sinners.

[Lee Hamilton (@LeeHamilton3)]

So now it's a big gay media conspiracy to cover the story surrounding Pope Francis' activities during Argentina's Dirty War, and the broader issue of the role of the Church & bishops during that time?

Agree on anti-clericalism (and the NYT was hostile to Benedict too, much more unfairly imo). But let's also acknowledge that the ongoing spat between the celibate male sacerdotal hierarchy of the RCC and the 'out' and open gay community has all the hallmarks of a family feud. So let's be a bit more canny about that. The Church has leveraged the power of the proverbial closet for centuries to fill its ranks.

Besides, Francis has also said some fairly blunt and questionable things about the role of women in public and private life that have absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism, so there's ample fodder for culture warriors there too.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Happiness is for Children; the awakened live on this side of the thin line that is called Despair.

[Cronin]

Optimax -- thanks for the info; interesting stuff. Colonel Lang -- I wouldn't say you're ignorant; or maybe I'm missing the tongue-in-cheek tone that The Twisted Genius detects. At any rate, a good Saturday to all, I am off to find some brook trout.

[turcopolier]

TTG

"Smirk?" I can usually keep a poker face. pl