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23 February 2013

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Bobo

While Scola and Turkson have the edge in Paddy Power I see the man who walks this earth in a quiet humble manner, utilizing sandals, sending shock waves with each step as he cleanses his flock, of the recent wretched sins of others, while ministering to the poor and unfortunate in building a church for the future. A man who through education received his phd's in Spanish and Portugese literature. A Capuchin is what is needed to take our Faith into our future while cleansing the sins of our church. My heart is with Sean Cardinal O'Malley though my mind understands the reality of the Vatican clergy.

Mike

Three priests and a former priest in Scotland have reported to the Papal Nuncio to Britain that Cardinal Keith O'Brien has been guilty odf "inappropriate behaviour"going back thirty years.The four from Edinburgh diocese have demanded that the Cardinal resign immediately, but he is contesting the claims. O'Brien, who is to retire next month, has been an outspoken opponent of gay rights, set his face against the legalisation of homosexual marriage, though he recently has expressed support for the acceptance of clerical marriage.

Those unfamiliar with Scotland's social and political history should know that traditionally, it has been a strictly Calvinist/Presbyterian nation where there has, since the Reformation, been a fierce hatred against "popery". In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, massive immigration from Ireland to the growing industries of Clydeside brought an influx of Catholics so that they now number perhaps 25% of the Scottish poulation - and a higher number in Glasgow and Clydeside (note the Cardinal's Irish surname). Scotland is split by the same bitter sectarian hatreds that produced the long crisis in neighbouring Northern Ireland. Witness the violence that regularly mars the football (soccer) matches between the old rivals Glasgow Celtic (Catholic) and Glasgoew Rangers (Protestant).

Cardinal O'Brien is due to retire next month, so the likelihood of this Prince of the Church, who in any case represents a very small proportion of the Catholic population of the planet, getting any votes at all would have been very low indeed. "Let's see how many votes he gets" - so the Colonel. Is there such a thing as a negative zero?

Clifford Kiracofe

Corruption....moral and financial it would appear. The Holy Father himself has been quite out front on this issue the last few weeks with not so oblique references.

Per O'Brien, who just called for allowing married priests, now this allegation. What next?:

"Three priests and a former priest in Scotland have reported the most senior Catholic clergyman in Britain,
Cardinal Keith O'Brien, to the Vatican over allegations of inappropriate behaviour stretching back 30 years...."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/23/cardinal-keith-o-brien-accused-inappropriate

The Italian press is replete with lurid allegations concerning the hierarchy and Curia. The US press seems to have toned down its reports of the Italian reports concerning the homosexual networks allegedly present.

The dossier compiled by three cardinals at the Pope's direction is said in the Italian press to contain details about a faction of homosexual cardinals and linkages into the Curia apparatus of a broader network. I recall a time when there was concern about "Soviet" penetration of the Curia not to mention "Masonic" penetration. The Spanish cardinal in charge of the investigation is Opus Dei. One other cardinal is a Slovak (I think). Only one was Italian.

If a network of homosexual cardinals exists, as alleged in front page Italian news reports, then one might raise the matter of whether they protect networks of homosexual archbishops who in turn protect networks of homosexual bishops, who in turn protect networks of homosexual priests to which attention has been drawn to in recent years.

This would be a formidable challenge to any Pope attempting to root out moral corruption. Thus, the effort to block active homosexuals from studying for the priesthood can be seen as one way around this apparently deeply entrenched network albeit long term. Next up, married priests? Already, under Benedict XVI, this has happened through the side door with the former Anglican married priests.

turcopolier

Mike

My Catholic Scots ancestors left to live in Louth in 1697 because they were so threatened in the West Highlands by the protestants and the forces of King William. pl

Babak Makkinejad

My understanding was that the Catholics did not consider Homosexuality to be a sin; rather its practice.

If my understanding be correct, then it would follow that the existence or ordained homosexuals who did not practice homosexuality is a non-issue.

Babak Makkinejad

"The sins of our church" you wrote.

But the Church - the body of Christ - is not a person. It does not partake of the Original Sin nor is it in the State of Fall - it has no Soul.

One might as well start writing about the Sins of Israel or those of the Ummah - they lack personhood and thus are not sinful.

Mike

I am sure you know that before the '45, the clans for the most part were largely Catholic, and of course Gaelic speaking. The Protestant Lowlanders had a deep animosity towards the Highlanders whom they would describe as "Irish" cattle raiding papist savages. They were at the best lukewarm towards the Stuart Old and Young Pretenders - Bonnie Prince Charlie etc - and welcomed the Hanoverian (and largely English or German) soldiery who carried out a policy of what we would now call ethnic cleansing after Culloden under General "Butcher" Cumberland.

turcopolier

Mike

The Langs of my line were an assimilated sept of MacDonald of Glencoe. They had originally been Angles who landed on the east coast in the 4th or 5th century. They drifted west leaving behind them Langs who were Leslie, Gordon, etc. By the 17th Century they were thoroughly Celt, Catholic and Gaelic speaking. They were also Jacobite. After the massacre they decided to leave. The Douglas clan and the Lowlanders like the Dalrymples were the cause. pl

Clifford Kiracofe

The issue that is presently all over the press relates to active homosexuals practicing on children, on fellow homosexuals in and out of the church, on male prostitutes to include transvestites, and so on. It appears that at least some of these reports are true. The reports point to priests and up to cardinals. Not only is this in the recent Italian press, but over the last several years a number of books and press reports emerged documenting some of the allegations with video tapes, etc..

No wonder the Pope has some concerns.

Stephanie

Turkson recently gave an interview where he talked as if he already had the gig and he seems to have a big mouth generally. Not what the Vatican needs right now. I'd replace his name with Marc Ouellet's.

Unless the new pope gives the conclave the kind of surprise Earl Warren gave Eisenhower, I wouldn't expect an idea as dangerously sensible as a married priesthood to get anywhere.

Bobo

The church is nothing more than a community of like minded individuals while "the body of Christ" is a Tenet of our faith. As a community we have all sinned by not not quickly dealing (once known) with the abusers of children within the hierarchy of our church. But then are we all not sinners seeking redemption.

Babak Makkinejad

Be as it may, a community of believers, the Church cannot be sinful. Only human beings can be so.

Babak Makkinejad

OK, thanks, I was not aware of all of the allegations.

mbrenner

Reading these posts against the backdrop of recent, and current Church history, I revert to the melancholy conclusion that there is an inescapable contradiction between ORGANIZED religion and a life of humane awareness of one's spiritual bonds to others and to the Cosmos. The more organized, the greater the contradiction.

I suppose persons (or, at least, rare persons) can make a difference, but only a rash optimist would count on it.

rjj

Formal religious practices and one's bond with The Ont are two different states - with some [variable] overlap. Seems to me the apparent contradiction comes from thinking of them as equivalent.

taras

Col., i believe Cardinal Husar is only ineligible to vote for the next Pope. His election (extremely unlikely) would probably pave the way for a married priesthood.

PeterHug

Perhaps the solution is for the Catholic Church to allow married clergy - but limit this exclusively to same-sex marriages?

:)

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