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24 January 2013

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kxd

thanks Colonel for answering my question.

At some point, there is going to be a massive backlash against the political correctness run amok in the Western World. I hope as you do that we don't find ourselves paying a high price for that.

Mike Ross

GEN Ann Dunwoody, USA
Gen Janet Wolfenbarger, USAF

turcopolier

Mike Ross

Ah. I missed them. they are both logisticians, a suitable role. IMO this makes this massive change even less necessary. pl

Fred

So Panetta, who doesn't have to implement this fine idea, is leaving the hard work for Hagel, while Panetta and Barrack get some positive PR from the liberals. America gets an EEOC army? Nice job Mr. Secretary. I won't hold my breath waiting to see which of Barrack's girls goes airborne.

Tyler

This is going to be a damn mess.

Basically, you have yet another triumph of insane liberal egalitariansim that says anything that conflicts with their agenda is simply a social construct. The offhand dismissal from the NYT crowd and its ilk towards any anecdotal evidence is (as illustrated in the comments) "anecdote is not the plural of data" and other smug off hand remarks.

However, I guess someone crunched the numbers at the top and figured a few three stars getting a fourth star is worth dead male grunts in the long run because females can't hump their own load, or get pregnant pre deployment, or any number of incidents.

Basically, the powers that be expect soldiers to be emotionless robots in which someone presses button A and Johnny kills some hadjis, and someone presses button B and Johnny does not show any special favoritism towards Jane during deployment.

The disgusting thing is that separate PT standards for men and women will likely continue, and in a lack of spine and integrity a bunch of stuffed shirts with fancy things on their collars and chest will get up in front of Congress and tell everyone how well the program is working.

Meanwhile the heart of our fighting infantry is eaten out a little bit more, but PC gets its day yet again. What happens when the first female gets raped? Gets impregnated? All the talk of "no battle lines" in Afghanistan makes me red with rage. When I was in Salerno we were pouring water over each other to bathe and eating cold k-rats while getting rocketed every night, but Bagram was hot meals three times a day from your pick of DFACs if you didn't feel like buying anything from the big PX! There is a monster difference!

Are they opening up the 18 series to this dictat? How about Selective Service?

Tyler

re: backlash

CULTURAL MARXIST GENOCIDE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!

PS

Surprisingly, the local Fox affiliate found a retired general who was gung-ho about the change; while NPR reporters went on this morning at some length about the need for standards equivalent to male soldiers in order to carry heavy packs, climb walls, and carry wounded soldiers off the battlefield.

harry

I would not choose to tell a specific woman what your skills or aptitudes are. The striker for the US ladies soccer team seems to have all the physical requirements to make a far better infantry man than me. I suspect she is also more likely to be a natural at killing.

I think I would suggest letting the army decide which women make good infantry troops. Im sure you are right to suggest not all of them.

Samantha Scott

It would be refreshing if all units could be staffed by personnel well suited to the tasks required. I agree that most women would not be suited to real combat and yet I am disinclined to restrict the few that might be solely on the basis of their gender. Is not the cost of letting the man who is "carried" in a combat unit (or forcing as is done during the draft) who is not suited to its true purpose be just as costly as it would be if that soldier was a woman?

Ael

In Canada, women were allowed into combat arms decades ago.
It was a non-event.

In the same way and a couple decades hence, this change will also be viewed as a non-event.

turcopolier

Ael

Canada is not a serious military power. How many women infantrymen has Canada deployed to Afghanistan in actual figting roles rather than as a staff officer or headquarters clerk? pl

Bababk Makkinejad

It is not political correctness that is the issue here, rather the purpose of human beings.

Tradition, all over the world, held motherhood to be the supreme aim and value of human female - whose nature - tradition also held - has been dominated by Love.

That was why women could also not be pall-bearers; they were considered to be carriers of Life and not Death.

The rejection of Tradition, initiated as a revolt against the Church in the Western World, has been going through its successive waves of rebellion, the last being the redefinition of marriage to cover perversion.

So, now we have to learn also to love the perversion of the supreme role of human female; she is to be an instrument of her own self-realization in some fantasy world - a Utopia that is just one more war away from realization; whence some of us shall enter this new Millenium.

Someday all of this sophomoric rebellion will end but not before it has left behind a large human wreckage.

turcopolier

SS

"I am disinclined to restrict the few that might be solely on the basis of their gender" Fine. I accept that idea although I have never met one. Did that require something other a careful selection process to accomodate the exception? pl

Bababk Makkinejad

This is CBC reporting:

"And here we have a number of Candain soldiers that are being gang-raped by the.... and there we have others who are nursing their children from enemy soldiers."

response of a Canadian Citizen: "This is a non event."

turcopolier

harry

"I would suggest letting the army decide" Yes. I am encouraging them to do rhe right thing as I see it. pl

Tyler

soccer is not warfare.

Is this a serious opinion?

Samantha Scott

I absolutely agree. How is that careful selection process not keeping out the men that, by your admission, have to be carried? Does it prevent the unsuitable male with political connections from getting a combat command position and killing a bunch of soldiers so he qualifies for that 4th star?

Tyler

If the Army was interested in doing the right thing they would have the same physical training standards for men and women.

Instead they're more worried about checking the right boxes for that plush consulting job post service.

turcopolier

SS

It is not. I am trying to help keep the situation from getting worse. pl

Medicine Man

A citation for that CBC report?

Medicine Man

Literally, Tyler?

Tyler

No one is saying that there aren't unqualified men, even as grunts.

What we're saying is that unqualified women are likely to get brushed over with the PC brush.

Women have to do 12 push ups to pass a PT test. Men have to do 48.

Is that "equality" then?

505thPIR

Eastern Front WW 2

Soviet Snipers Nina Lobkovskaya with 308 confirmed kills and Lyudmila Pavlichenko at 309...

That is 617 Wehrmacht and SS soldiers who may have found female infantry a plausable reality.

The issue is not can they fight but rather, can men and women stop being men and women in close, sustained essentially intimate proximity to one another? Unless there is some way to manipulate the human genome, the answer is no. The social and institutional dysfunction to follow is easily predicted.

A Bluntly and crudley worded rhetorical question: How much time and energy is going to be diverted from mission oriented training to make sure 18,19 yr olds don't do what comes naturally to them? Anyone know any good Saltpeter recipes?

Peacetime training ought to be interesting. How vulnerable is someone going to be in the foxhole? The abuse will go both ways...actual unwanted attention and fabricated stories of such. Inuendo and mere hints of impropriety will be omnipresent. JAG will have some interesting days ahead.

Actual combat in mixed units. Wow.....

Ael

Something less that 4% of combat arms soldiers are women (more officers, less enlisted) In Canada, three of the 150 odd casualties were women. This suggests that they fought (and died) in roughly equal proportions to their participation.

In other words, they were not confined to staff positions.

turcopolier

505th PIR

Snipers? Come on! I'm an old man and my eyes are not what they were. I can't walk half a mile without falling apart but if you give me a shot at you at 300 yards, you will have a bad day. As for the rest of it that is just part of the story. pl

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