Madison, Federalist # 46 and gun rights

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it."

James Madison (Publius) in Federalist Paper #46
arguing for the ratification of the present Constitution including the Second amendment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To "sweeten" the medicine of an insistence on individual gun rights in the US, it is usually claimed now that Americans want guns for; hunting, target shooting, home defense, collecting...

In fact "Publius" argues here that the possession of firearms by the citizens and the potential for resistance to tyranny implicit in that possession is necessary as part of the system of checks and balances that holds tyranny at bay. 

As one of the three authors of the Federalist Papers Madison is engaged in trying to persuade the states to ratify the present constitution.  Without such assurances as this one, it is quite possible that the constitution might never have been ratified.  In fact, two states, North Carolina and Rhode Island had voted against ratification by the time that Virginia voted in favor by the slimmest of margins thus establishing a majority.

NB that the private possession of weapons is mentioned by Madison BEFORE he mentions the similar effect of armed militias belonging to the states.  It is stated as an absolute good.  This explains the structure of the clauses in the second amendment.  The militia clause is intended to stand as an example of what in Madison's view was an absolute right of the citizens.

For those who would reply that an armed citizenry could have no effect against a modern army, it is only necessary to direct their attention to the history of the last years.

To those on the left or right who think an unarmed citizenry is a good idea, consider your true thoughts regarding the scruples of government servants and possible future regimes.  pl

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fedindex.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

Comments

[Edward Amame]

Not sure why the opposition to registering certain types of firearms (ie: the kind that can mow down 26 people in under 2 minutes). In response to highly publicized gang violence in the 1930s, the National Firearms Act of 1934 was signed into law. The Act imposed a tax on making and transferring machine guns and sawed-off shotguns. The law also required the registration of machine guns. In 1939 the SC decided, in a unanimous decision, that the NFA did not violate the Second Amendment.

[Tyler]

The only one fighting a fantasy war here is you, in a world where somehow the USG is all powerful and omnipotent and ignores Afghanis with 1950s tech bleeding the military to a standstill. Do you really think people couldn't get gas through other channels? Really?

That "6%" of America also makes up the majority of the Infantry and Special Forces, with generally accompanying sympathies.

I still don't understand how the idea of alternate power other than the Grid manages to come across like magic to you, but there it is.

[Tyler]

In the story he admits he admits he dosen't think he could have shot (if its the same link I saw), hardly the kind of thing a would be Rambo would readily admit to, imho?

Why is everyone who conceal carries a "wanna be rental cop"? I remember the same epithet getting hurled about with Zimmerman when he was nearly beaten to death by Martin?

Texas CCW holders have less firearms issues than the NYPD, but I guess they've all got something to prove as well? Or maybe its just a dangerous world out there, and best be prepared as this young man was?

[Tyler]

You don't think near 25% unemployment for men while our politicians pander to illegal immigrants has anything to do with disassociation?

The cultural "dumbing down" of men being at best, Homer Simpson in the media while women are constantly portrayed as Rocket Scientist Soccer All Stars causing men to drop out of society into video games?

Okay we're playing the game of ignoring any sort of links between the liberalism and our society going to shit because guns have scary mind control powers gotcha.

[John Minnerath]

A good friend of mine has been a gun dealer since before the Gun Control act of 1968.
The current ATF form 4473 that we all have to fill out when buying from any FFL has to be maintained by the FFL holder for 20 years, if the FFL is closed or the holder retires all forms less than 20 years old have to be surrendered to the ATF.
The ATF can demand the forms during any investgation and I believe, but I'm not sure, that they can also do random checks to make sure an FFL is doing his record keeping correctly.
My friend has had ATF go through his several times during the course of investigations when a firearm matching the serial number of one he had sold has come up.
That trail of 4473's can go on forever it seems until the time comes when some reach 20 years of age and can be legally destroyed by the original FFL holder.
Also an FFL holder can not sell any firearm, even one of his own to a friend, without filling out and filing a 4473.

[optimax]

I didn't say Mr. Meli was Rambo. The news report says he was a security guard at the same mall the shooting took place until a few months ago when he went to another security firm, and it also said he wanted to become a real policeman.

I get tired of regurgitating the facts of a story I or someone else linked to. If you didn't reaqd it, don't bug me, Tyler, I've been through this crap you before--always putting words into people's mouths.

[Tyler]

Also, urban youfs have killed many many more children with senseless violence in those bastions of gun control than Adam Lanza could have ever have hoped to match. These hate facts won't register with you I'm sure, since you seem to believe guns exude a Son of Sam like influence on people in your world, instead of going after the perpetrators of the majority of gun violence in ther US.

[Tyler]

Speaking of Israel, how come all these Jewish politicians (Bloomberg, Emmanuel, Schumer, Feinstein) have a serious beef against the 2nd Amendment?

I guess much like illegal immigration, the Chosen live by a separate set of rules.

[Tyler]

Someone mentioned Israel's gun laws, but I notice how many of the top gun grabbers in the US (Schumer, Bloomberg, Feinstein, Emmanuel) seem to be Jewish.

Much like illegal immigration, I reckon there's one set of laws for the Chosen, and one set for everyone else.

I'd also like to note how the same people who claim that we can't deport 12 million illegal aliens, or even dare make it uncomfortable for them, seem to blithely hand wave how they're going to deal with 300 million firearms that know of.

[Fred]

Rural America sure hasn't had much problem winning congressional and state level elections - much to the chagrin of metropolitan folks like those in NYC. Those folks should get out of the city - to somewhere other than upstate NY, Fire Island or the Jersey shore. They might learn something - if they were actually willing to learn.

[Fred]

It would be nice if those who 'protect and defend' didn't kill the mentally ill with 'non-violent' means. Here's one of Digby's many reports.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/another-story-from-taser-war-on.html

Who's going to hold the police accountable for their conduct?

[Fred]

Just watch the latest batch of tv commercials and you'll know men are idiots. That trend has been growing since the late '80s.

[Babak Makkinejad]

I do not.

Youth unemployment in Spain is close to 25% and 34% in Korea.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Please, on your way there, convey my greetings to Will Robinson, the Robot, and other valiant crew members of Jupiter-2.

[Tyler]

Yeah, because "wannabe real cop" is in no way deragatory. You got me there old man.

I didn't put anything in your mouth that you didn't say - I can't be bothered to argue with someone who can't stand by their words, especially when all I did was question the larger theme in the media of every ccw holder being a "wannabe" of some sort.

[Tyler]

Apples and oranges, culturally with the US.

[Tyler]

Too true Fred. The emasculation of America marches on.

[Fred]

I'd say they are far more adept at grabbing campaign contributions. If history repeats itself the press will be on to other stories in 6 weeks:

http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/12/16/mass-shootings-gun-control-and-short-attention-spans/

[Charles I]

Infanticide is almost an exclusively female crime.

What does that mean?

Violence is in large part situational.

[Babak Makkinejad]

And the rural Americans can also spend sometime in NYC and learn tolerance.

[John Minnerath]

The problem of severe mental illness that no one wants to deal with.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/madness-deinstitutionalization-murder

[Tyler]

I imagine this is why the NRA is "keeping its powder dry" by and large.

[turcopolier]

Babak

IMO rural Americans are willing to accept that NY City people do whatever they like to themselves. pl

[Richard]

One of my neighbors is a survivor of the Cambodian Holocaust. They were kind enough to talk to me about what happen and how their family endured the ordeal. I came away with the realization that as an American, there is almost a responsibility to own a firearm. My New Years resolution this year will be to own one before the years end.

[optimax]

In America we are all on our own until there is a massacre or natural disaster. Then we send our donations to help the victims recover because we refuse to support a viable social safety net. Of course the victim has to be profiled on the news for people of goodwill to become aware of individual needs. Paying taxes doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy.