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16 December 2012

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Tyler

The United States is not NYC, culturally or geographically.

Any rebellion would become a guerilla war in the US, where small arms & hit and run tactics would be the name of the game.

Your analogy about 'cutting power' is a non sequitor.

b

The 21 children in China were INJURED by a man using a knife. NONE was killed.

If the man had had access to an AR15, they would likely have been dead.

That is exactly the point why such military type weapons should not be free for all.

Al Spafford

Well stated,
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/12/15/true-stories-in-gun-control/
I have been a multi-gun owner with a LOCKED steel cabinet, ammo stored separately. Not fool proof entirely, but would stop most fools.
Several decades ago returned my NRA membership and free hat when the extremist org supported the sales of coated bullets that would pierce police vests.
Traditions die hard and our traditions will continue to make many die hard.

confusedponderer

"Guns don't help much at all against the police; you've got a gun, they've got a swat team. "

The ability of law enforcement to subdue with overwhelming force is considerable, sacrificing the idea of self restraint on the altar of officer safety, under the label to be 'tough on crime'.

In America, with its increasingly linked databases and no protection of personal data in the hands of government to speak of - possession of a registered firearm probably is a drawback. There's that, and then there's the average screw up. SWAT teams have, generously funded by the war on terror, proliferated.

In order to justify the immense expense, they are being used for things formerly considered mundane, like serving warrants and the like - i.e. there are more SWAT raids. Give their looks, gear and tactics, even local law enforcement units violate posse commitatus at least in spirit.

Registered gun ownership, or vet status (knows how to use firearms, experience with violence) may lead to police considering a visit a 'risk', leading to a more confrontational posture. Iraq has taught us that even putative 'risks' become palpable reality often simply by merit of asserting them.

SWAT teams are trained to subdue with force. That shapes attitudes, and it wouldn't be the first time for a hammer to address problems in a hammer like manner. The cases of citizens getting quite deliberately shot by SWAT Teams accidentally invading the wrong homes speak for themselves. People can be lucky if such uninvited visitors only shoot the family dog and keep damage to property at a minimum.

http://tinyurl.com/ccehrrm

And yet ... the Iraqis and Afghans successfully hampered the US attempts to pacify their respective countries with AKs, IED, RPGs. Probably, if the right to bear arms is supposed to be an effective safeguard against tyranny, the means allotted supposedly ought to 'go with the times', allowing ownership of such weapons. After all, should a well regulated militia be armed less well than the average rag tag rabble that US troops encounter across the world?

Ok, the last part WAS tongue in cheek.

optimax

You forgot to mention that of the twenty children slashed in China none died. And in Israel you have carte blanche to kill Arabs. Talk about the the Swiss if you want to talk about a safe armed society but they have a habit of not invading other countries. America is out of control from top to bottom and if we don't face our problems soon, we are doomed to continue our decline until we hit bottom. You think we can act like gangsters abroad and not pay for it at home?

optimax

I agree, Nancy. I don't see any Washingtons or Jeffersons ready to form a better government in the aftermath of a successful revolution. Instead, we would have gangs battling for control. We were lucky to get the government we did the first time. We should use our political force to keep it.

Eric Dönges

This is an argument I have never understood - if the U.S. armed forces can be counted on not to assist a tyrannical government in suppressing the populace, then why would the populace need to arm itself in the first place ?

DH

And incubated in a female-centric school system.

DH

"On Friday, August 26, 2011, the First Circuit Court of Appeals, which is New England's highest federal court just below the U.S. Supreme Court, ruled that citizens are allowed to videotape law officials while they conduct official duties.

The city's attorneys made the argument that police officers should have been exempt from a civil rights lawsuit in the first place in this case because the law is unclear as to whether there's a "constitutionally protected right to videotape police" conducting their daily duties in public.

"The filming of government officials engaged in their duties in a public place, including police officers performing their responsibilities, fits comfortably within these principles [of protected First Amendment activity].," said the Court. "Gathering information about government officials in a form that can readily be disseminated to others serves a cardinal First Amendment interest in protecting and promoting the free discussion of governmental affairs."

The Court added that the police officers should have understood this all along, and that videotaping public officials is not limited to the press."

http://www.dailytech.com/First+Circuit+Court+of+Appeals+Rules+that+Citizens+Can+Videotape+Police/article22587.htm

turcopolier

All

Firearms are not registered with government in Virginia. The express purpose for this in law is tp prevent the creation of a police data base of gun owners. Clearance records for gun sales are destroyed after six months. pl

Bababk Makkinejad

guerilla war?

Geronimo did that was defeated; and he could run away and hide in Mexico from to time.

Earth to Tyler, Earth to Tyler:

Come in Tyler, come in!

Fred

You forgot to point out the fine living conditions in China. Perhaps we could all live and work in a nice Foxconn town? From the Wapo:

http://tinyurl.com/8oxn239

Perhaps all those concerned about China will investigate all those dead Chineese billionaires, for surely 72 is allot more than 26.

http://tinyurl.com/aftejln

Fred

Yorktown. Citizens had arms and did defeat the British. (Yes, they had a French Navy and Army to help, but Jefferson Davis didn't.)

Fred

I disagree with the articles interpretation. “The First Circuit Court of Appeals reached a crucial decision last Friday allowing the public to videotape police officers while they're on the clock. “

The rights of citizens do NOT come from courts (government), the governments power comes from the citizens, in this case citiznes of New Jersey . Sadly some police officers believe they should be immune from both civil and governmental accountability.

Tyler

Are you serious? Indians with muskets is the best you can come up with?

Your comparions to NYC and a nomadic society make me wonder what color the sky is in your world because you have no inkling of what the ground is like in rural America.

DH

"Clearance records for gun sales are destroyed after six months."

How sure are you?

DH

Understood.

Nancy K

I don't think I am being disingenous at all. I'm not talking about urban crime or robberies or crimes of passion etc, I'm talking about mass murders by primarily young males. I seriously doubt that liberalim caused Adam Lanza to shoot his mother in the face and then take her arsenal to an elementary school and proceed to butcher the children and teachers. I seriously doubt that liberalism caused any of the other mass shootings.
I believe it is young men or boys who have mental and social problems, who are filled with hate because they are not given the attention they feel they deserved. They are also fueled by violent computer games and movies. On top of this add the easy access to guns,and what you have is the perfect storm.
Of course I realize that if they didn't have access to guns they might still kill, but guns make it impersonal and easy for them.

turcopolier

DH

"How sure are you?" good question. I have been repeatedly been assured that this is true. anyone have a more specific answer? pl

DH

I follow your point, but your NYC example is unrealistic unless the country has been taken over by religious extremists. It is more likely we'd be ruled (more than we are today) by an oligarchical, high-surveillance government that would value the finacial contribution of NYC.

We are already ruled by mass culture managing us through narrative and vanity.

Bababk Makkinejad

hmm...

Rural America - which contains 6 % of US population cannot win against a government that controls 94% of its population.

In the absence of gasoline, alll those rural turcks will be idled.

And transportation reduced to what can be carried by mules and horses (and that would take time to raise).

And then there are helicopter gunships, howitzers, drones, etc.

Really, rather than fighting a fantasy war I suggest you concentrate on ensuring that the US officials - elected or un-elected - are human beings with high moral and ethical standards.

That is the only guarantee, if any, against the demise of the Republic or its take-over by unscrupulous people.

Bababk Makkinejad

Computer games are not the culprit; that is akin to attributing crime to crime novels.

[If such a thing were true, one would have expected many more romantic marriages than actually is the case - due to Romance Novels.]

I think you are omitting the silent cause - drug usage, widely available in every high school in the United States.

A situation that did not obtain prior to 1950s; around the time the mass murder phenomenon began.

optimax

Tyler

I think it was you that said a citizen with a carry permit stopped the shooting at Clackamas Town Square. Here is the news report.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

You are right that the national news organizations will not pick up this story because of their anti-gun agenda,

BUT I have aproblem with his account in that there is no confirmation--where is the girlfroend he was with at the mall? It has been confirmed by other eyewitnesses the shooter's gun jammed, but Meli says the shooter saw him with his Glock and then committed suicide. Other eyewitnesses said the shooter heard the police sirens before killing himself.

Meli could be telling the truth but I need confirmation not the word of an ex-mall cop, wanna be real cop.

Edward Amame

Not sure why the opposition to registering certain types of firearms (ie: the kind that can mow down 26 people in under 2 minutes). In response to highly publicized gang violence in the 1930s, the National Firearms Act of 1934 was signed into law. The Act imposed a tax on making and transferring machine guns and sawed-off shotguns. The law also required the registration of machine guns. In 1939 the SC decided, in a unanimous decision, that the NFA did not violate the Second Amendment.

Tyler

The only one fighting a fantasy war here is you, in a world where somehow the USG is all powerful and omnipotent and ignores Afghanis with 1950s tech bleeding the military to a standstill. Do you really think people couldn't get gas through other channels? Really?

That "6%" of America also makes up the majority of the Infantry and Special Forces, with generally accompanying sympathies.

I still don't understand how the idea of alternate power other than the Grid manages to come across like magic to you, but there it is.

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