Calm Down on Gun Control

 
 

"... Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., who said after the shootings: "If now is not the time to have a serious discussion about gun control and the epidemic of gun violence plaguing our society, I don't know when is." Or CNN's Piers Morgan who, on his show, asked a defender of the Second Amendment: "How many more kids have to die, before you guys say, 'We want less guns, not more'?" Or New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who recently demanded that Congress pass gun-control legislation and said this: "If this moment passes into memory without action from Washington, it will be a stain upon our nation's commitment to protecting the innocent, including our children." Intending to capitalize on the tragedy, the antigun crowd insists that this is precisely the time to talk about toughening the nation's gun laws. After all, they say, you want to have such a dialogue when people are thinking about the issue."  San Francisco Chronicle

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Piers Morgan is a "no-class" carpetbagger from the UK and the other two are, after all, New Yorkers, so what can one expect? 

This author, who is from the Washington Post writers group, has a valid point.  This level of tragedy should demand something other than the crude hucksterism of perpetually weeping TV "newsies" intent on bull-dozing their way to their goal of a disarmed US public.  pl 

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/navarrette/article/Gun-debate-needs-a-waiting-period-4129691.php#ixzz2FVFwxQST

 

Comments

[Clifford Kiracofe]

I noticed Morgan was born in Surrey,England. Wiki does not indicate he has US citizenship.

Thus a foreigner on US television lecturing us about our Constitution? Undermining public respect for constitutional government?

A foreign agent of influence...yes? no? yes.

[blowback]

From Wikipedia:

UK:
0.25 firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in one year
0.01 unintentional firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in one year

USA: 9.2 firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in one year
0.25 unintentional firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in one year

Piers Morgan is a scumbag but that doesn't mean that sometimes he doesn't speak the truth.

[jamzo]

this infographic provides an international comparison re: homicide by firearm per 100,000

http://globalsociology.com/files/2012/12/Homicide-by-firearm-100000-2hak1ns.png

[Bill H]

I have always argued that laws passed in the heat of the moment, during the emotional aftermath of tragedy, are much more likely than not to be over-reaction. The human condition tends to allow emotion to overcome reason.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

Senator Rockefeller bill to investigate impact of media violence:

"In the wake of the Newtown shootings, Senate Commerce Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller introduced a bill Tuesday night that would have the National Academy of Sciences examine any link between violent games and media and violent acts by children, industry sources say.

According to a copy of the “discussion draft” obtained by POLITICO, the legislation directs the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communications Commission to make “appropriate arrangements” with the NAS to enable the study."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/sen-jay-rockefeller-wants-shooter-games-and-violence-studied-85298.html#ixzz2FWAJZGHG

Excellent start on this.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

White House take force to include Atty General, Sec of Education and Sec of HHS. VP to chair. Excellent start and correct recognition of roles of Education and HHS for needed input.

"Obama spoke Monday with Biden and three Cabinet secretaries – Attorney General Eric Holder, Education Secretary Arne Duncan and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius — “to begin looking at ways the country can respond to the tragedy in Newtown,” the White House said."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/barack-obama-to-announce-guns-task-force-85293.html#ixzz2FWBMtFfw

[jonst]

I like and respect people from NYC. I was born and raised there. And the people there are pretty bright, though they might have a different view of life than Virgina does. And we're a pretty tough lot as well.

You and Jim Webb are great...as to the rest of Virgina's political leadership....they don't impress me as having a wit of intellect, though they are very sly. Particularly at raising funds. Often from people in NYC. Sadly.

[CK]

Might start with investigating which of the many mental deranger drugs this adult was on.
Might even go so far as to sue the shrink that prescribed the killer drugs.
Not that I expect that to happen, the drug and shrink industry are almost as well entrenched as the Kaplans.

[jerseycityjoan]

I agree we need to keep our heads and that right now, there's a lot of emotion about this.

But as far as I am concerned, the reason not to get too focussed on gun control is that there is much more to this.

There was a point where the slogan "Guns don't kill, people do" annoyed me because I thought it was flippant way of denying what I thought was a real problem. But in recent years I have come to see how true it is that it's the people who kill and that's the biggest problem, of much greater importance than the guns they use.

I looked up that phrase on Google and I found an article that quoted the annoying Michael Moore saying two things worth contemplating earlier this year. Here's the first:

"Of all the gun murders in the 23 richest countries combined, just ONE of those countries is responsible 4 80% of them. Who kills ppl? We do."

Here's the second, which asks some big questions that we all need to be asking:

"So what is it about US? Yes, gun laws would help. But there'd still be thousands of us still wanting 2 kill someone. Why here¬ elsewhere?"

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/07/guns-dont-kill-people-americans-do-says-michael-moore

I love America and I love Americans but it's clear to me that something's unusually -- perhaps even uniquely -- wrong with us as a people when it comes to violence. When compared to our peer nations, we are outliers and outlaws who have done far more to minimize and deny than to acknowledge and deal with our society's unbelievably high level of violence.

We are very good at going around the world and trying to fix other people's problems. We are very good at telling people from other countries they are not as advanced as we are and could learn a lot from us.

Well, this is a case where we are the backwards ones, in my opinion.

While I suspect that our extremely high levels of violence are deeply connected to our many virtues, I see no reason to accept that there is nothing we can do about violence in America.

This long-time Achilles' heel of ours is growing; we need to stop the growth and slowly make it shrink.

[jerseycityjoan]

There's millions of people in the New York City area who feel trapped in their own homes to at least some extent due to gun violence.

Nobody seems to care that they are deprived of their freedom of movement and their liberty each and every day. Nobody seems to care that their kids grow up confined to their homes far more than they should be or would be, if they lived somewhere else.

Now you can say that many of these problems would be there whether the guns were they or not and that's true. However, guns make being bad easier. Guns help make bad people more powerful.

People in big cities who see guns and violence differently than those in peaceful suburbs and rural areas have their reasons and they are not stupid.

It is funny though that it's usually the white people in the low crime areas who deliver the lectures about gun control that others find so irritating. The less fortunate ones who have the much bigger problem with violence on the street, in their buildings and sometimes even in their own apartments don't complain nearly as much. They are just big sufferers with little money.

[harry]

Im british. I can assure you that Piers Morgan is an agent of influence for the Murdochs and no one else. And yes, scumbag is a very accurate description.

As for New York, I can assure you that it is a very nice city if a touch expensive. The population is in general perfectly hospitable.

[jerseycityjoan]

Here's something else:

I have been wondering recently to what extent life in America is getting less satisfying or harder due to population growth.

There were 180 million of us in 1960. There are 310 million people here now, and we are supposed to reach 400 million somewhere around 2050.

So now I am wondering if having these extra people will be a stressor that will make violence worse.

I suppose there's no real answer to that. But the idea that things may get worse as we add more people into the equation makes me even more eager for us to tackle this issue.

[turcopolier]

harry

I'm an American who does NOT like New York City. I have been there a lot. I was there last week for two days and could hardly wait for an opportunity to leave. I find New Yorkers to be abrupt, vaguely hostile and without good manners. The pushiness shown by the two men mentioned is typical. Let them go find their own country. BTW, please take back Piers Morgan and a few of the other journalists you have shipped us. pl

[turcopolier]

jonst

I was deceived. I thought you were a downeaster. "they might have a different view of life than Virgina does." You think? How about secession as an option for the tri-state area? pl

[Edward Amame]

I once heard Fran Lebowitz describe my hometown as an island off the coast of America. It made me laugh. I also like this one of hers: "When you leave New York, you are astonished at how clean the rest of the world is. Clean is not enough."

[optimax]

Michael Moore is on this short video that says prescribing psychotropic drugs to the young is probably the main cause of school shootings and should be investigated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSZ9YTnSkLc

SSRIs have never been tested on children and there is evidence that they cause aggressive and suicidal thoughts in some people, maybe even more so in the young. Here's more:

http://www.ssristories.com/

There is an extremely disgusting editorial in the NYT yesterday that tries to equate Palistinian suicide bombers with our school shooters, completely ignoring the fact that the former live under foreign occupation and the latter are mentally ill individuals who imagine innocent strangers to be their enemies. The American Conservative website has a good counter to that b.s. editorial.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

"Most Americans think banning assault and semi-automatic guns wouldn’t be as effective at preventing school shootings than increasing government spending on mental health and bolstering police presence at schools, according to a post-Newtown, Conn., tragedy poll.

Gallup polled on how people view the effectiveness of six different responses to the Dec. 14 incident at Sandy Hook Elementary School in which authorities say Adam Lanza killed 20 students and six other school officials."
...

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/poll-more-police-over-gun-ban-85330.html#ixzz2FXiVrpaf

The Conn. State Medical Examiner is now going deep into Lanza from a genetic point of view. There have been allegations of Aspergers which do not yet seem confirmed. Furthermore, specialists say there is no correlation between Asperger's per se and violence. So it is going to take some serious medical forensic work on this to really try to figure out what some problems may have been.

"Dr. H. Wayne Carver II tells The Hartford Courant that he wants to know if there is any identifiable disease associated with the behavior of the shooter, Adam Lanza. He is working with the University of Connecticut department of genetics."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57559983/medical-examiner-seeks-genetic-clues-to-adam-lanzas-motives/

Connecticut is said to have the fifth strictest gun control laws in the US. Had this deranged boy been judged by the court mentally ill and a threat, he would not have been able to purchase a firearm in VA. Same for the VA Tech shooter who was also deranged but not specifically judged by the courts as mentally ill. The VA Tech shooter was also reported as a violent video game addict.

Yes, time to calm down and think straight.

My sense is that if the "liberals" want to cram gun control down the American people's throats -- like Senator Feinstein is preparing for -- there will be significant push back. The Benghazi push back is just a hint of what can be done politically, IMO. Next federal elections are in 2 years, state and local elections next year.

[Joe]

Newtown was a very bad event but the war on drugs kills many more each day. Legalize drugs so they can be taxed and treatment centers can be set up. As was mentioned earlier pharmaceuticals and mental health are big drivers in the abuse of firearms. Gun control alone is not going to fix innocent people being killed by firearms.

Might want to fix the drone problem that kills many innocent civilians or maybe we can just have obama cry about that.

[Clifford Kiracofe]

harry,

thanks. that is reassuring about Morgan.

I lived on Pont Street for a time in 1968 and quite enjoyed London and its people. I prefer London and Paris and Berlin, not to mention Chicago and San Francisco, to New York where the people are so relentlessly vulgar and rude to put it delicately.

[mo]

Colonel,
As an outsider looking in I am perplexed by the way this argument is going in the states. jerseycityjoan's comment is perhaps the first time I have seen a US citizen articulate thoughts similar to mine.

I have heard the arguments for gun control, drug control and socio economic put forward as th reason these events keep happening in the States.

But the fact is that the US is not the only country in the world that allows gun ownership or where gun ownership is high. The US is not the only country handing out medications to young people (although it does do it at a much higher level than everyone else) so statisticaly speaking, these kind of events should happen more often in other countries as well.
If the statistics make sense, than the only alternative is cultural. Now we know some people are more suggestible than others and that some can be induced to act based on that suggestibility. Therefore, isnt the contstant message of life is cheap that is seen everday in the romanticising of the Wid West outlaws (including the vastly inflated dead in modern depictions), the glorification of US govt. foreign policy, the "heroics" of movie and tv charachters that can kill their way through an episode or movie leaving more dead than the real life version would do in their entire career?

Again this is an outsiders view so I may be completely wrong but would appreciate your views on this.

[jonst]

Been in Maine, 35 years. Love it. Grew up in New York, love it. If Virgina inclines toward secession put me down as their biggest supporter in Maine. Bye, Bye.

I'm a major proponent of a NORTHERN New England Federation. Hooking up with the Maritimes. I would love to be out of the same boat the South, and indeed, the Sunbelt, is in. Would wish ya all the best of luck,nothing personal against anyone, but glad to see the back of ya, and your (not you, but the South in general) endless, endless, grandiose, sense of victimization.

[Fred]

JCJ, you stated:
"Nobody seems to care that they are deprived of their freedom of movement and their liberty each and every day."

I'm not depriving them of anything. Its a big country - move, vote, call the NYPD or just sit in fear and wait for Big Brother to come keep you safe. The latter - good ole Mayor Bloomberg - seemed to rather effectively crush Occupy WallStreet with a simple order to the NYPD based on an unsubstantiated fear of 'potential' violence; who needs probable cause?

Well, all those protesters could at least wave the Constitution around - before they were handcuffed and hauled off anyway. A year later - all those New Yorkers you mention are still cowering.

[Fred]

You might find this interesting - here's a summary of recent medical research on the impact of city living on thinking:

"Just being in an urban environment ... impairs our basic mental processes. After spending a few minutes on a crowded city street, the brain is less able to hold things in memory, and suffers from reduced self-control."

"http://crookedtimber.org/2009/01/11/the-metropolis-and-mental-life/"

[Clifford Kiracofe]

A (female) judge has this to say:

"The school shooting in Connecticut is a chilling example of the failure of our state mental-health system to treat patients successfully and to protect the public from those patients.

From the time I was in law school, I’ve been frustrated about the lack of interaction between our criminal law and our mental health law, which allows for the mentally ill to avoid the treatment that will enable them to live within the societal norms we’ve established. Those who are on the borderline of functioning well must commit an “overt act” that proves they are a danger to themselves or others before we can force them to receive mental health treatment. Then they go to a state hospital, get “regulated” on their meds, get discharged and refuse treatment once they are free. Oftentimes, they don’t commit an overt act until they commit a horrendous crime, such as the killing of innocent lives."
....

Read more: Anniston Star - The intersection between criminal law and mental health law

[Fred]

Well I'm sure the firearm related deaths in Saudi Arabia per 100,000 in population is far smaller. Maybe we could just become subjects and obey the sovereign. At least we'd know it was the government spying on politicians by hacking their phones rather than Murdoch's employees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_International_phone_hacking_scandal

Besides, we've already beaten the British twice. Though maybe we could talk the Royal Marines into making a repeat visit to the District of Columbia.