Data Call: SCUD firings

Do we actually know that Syria has fired SCUDS at the rebels?  What are the citations and what is the evidence?  It is very convenient that Syria supposedly fired SCUDS (ballistic missiles) at the rebels AFTER Turkey asked for NATO owned Patriot anti-ballistic missiles.  pl                            

Comments

[mo]

Colonel, I presume they must have accidently omitted you from the mailing list when sending the script out.

Its Act II scene I of a 3 act piece of fiction, entitled Building the case for intervention and readying the borders for invasion.

And even Jordan is becoming concerned that it is no longer relevant to the hegemonistic plans of the US and Qatar.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/12/jordan-king-abdullah-extremists.html

With Hamas having left the "Resistance axis" (whats the bet they are removed from the US Terrorist list by the end of 2013), Jordan no longer has a role to play and eventually will have to be enfolded into the new Hamad led MB Caliphate.

The number of ironies in all this is bewildering.

[robt willmann]

Here it comes, or goes ....

The CNN website says that Sec. Defense Panetta signed the order to send two Patriot missile batteries and 400 U.S. troops to operate them to Turkey.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

The article also says that Germany and the the Netherlands have "shown willingness" to add two Patriot batteries each from their countries. This coincides with what Harper said in a comment in the earlier post below (the "SCUD 'onslaught' ") that the German Bundestag had approved it.

[FkDahl]

All I have seen is Grad missiles being fired, such as
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNmg7tGolwE
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEK6kX6xcsE

[505thPIR]

"Scud" has fear factor value since first Gulf War Scud Hunt and Israeli Air Raid Sirens. It is a common mental/visual reference point for the sheeple. Saying they are being used creates anxiety. The voracity of the claim is really kind of irrelevent.

Fairly limited tactical value against an insurgency anyways.

So key buzz words thus far...Chemical Weapons, Scuds, fearful stuff.

[Kieran]

Supposedly, underline supposedly, fired from Nasiriyah airbase. http://goo.gl/maps/RrgHv

The media uses 'SCUD' as a metaphor. If the Syrians did fire tactical ballistic missiles, it could equally have been a Syrian knockoff of the solid fueled 'precision guided' Iranian missiles (M600).

[Rd.]

Perhaps a more realistic assessment on the ground from AsSafir, explains the propaganda surrounding chem weapons and scud missiles;

“[AsSafir] "...More than two weeks into the clashes in the Rif Dimashq governorate, the fog began to lift on the facts behind the rebel “invasion.” Apparently, the armed opposition — Jabhat al-Nusra in particular — suffered serious casualties.

“A few days earlier, the Syrian regime carried out a tactical maneuver on the advice of the allied intelligence service, according to the following scenario: Strategic weapons were removed from their caches, giving a false impression that they were being transported to a safer place. “

http://friday-lunch-club.blogspot.de/2012/12/damascus-proactive-strike.html

[Clifford Kiracofe]

"U.S. and allied officials say the forces of embattled Syrian President Bashar Assad have prepared several dozen bombs and shells loaded with the lethal chemical sarin.

The number is a larger estimate than has previously been reported. The Syrians loaded the weapons with the chemical agents in the past several weeks, the officials say.

Those preparations raise fears that the fighting against rebel forces could enter a new and more troubling phase, according to the officials, who requested anonymity.

They were particularly alarmed when Assad's forces fired Scud missiles at rebel positions earlier this week, initially believing that the warheads included sarin, one of the most deadly chemical weapons, which can kill victims within minutes.

Between three and eight Scuds were fired from the capital Damascus, according to Pentagon sources, toward rebel positions around the northern city of Aleppo, a distance of some 200 miles.

The U.S. and its allies are preparing for ways to address the chemical weapons threat.

CIA contractors are training rebels in Jordan on how to identify and safeguard chemical weapons that are located in dozens of sites around the country.

NATO Is Involved In Planning

NATO is stepping up planning. The Czech Republic, which has expertise in chemical weapons, is taking the lead on a more robust rebel training effort, officials said.

NATO is also identifying medical personnel who could be quickly dispatched to Syria to assist any casualties, officials said. And there is talk among the allies of reaching out to the Syrian population –- either through the international media or other means –- to describe the symptoms of exposure to chemical weapons. NATO also is considering air dropping medicines that could help Syrian civilians in the event of a chemical attack.
"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/14/167267519/u-s-officials-syria-has-prepared-several-dozen-chemical-bombs

So here we go with the next ratchet up.

Next we might expect Susan Rice to invite Colin Powell to give a presentation at the UN about Syrian CW. Pictures could be ready of big water tank trucks which can be called mini-CW mixers about to be deployed to spray al-Nusra and other cherished terrorist allies.

The article mentions the Czechs having expertise. Anyone? I had thought in the Cold War era that in the East Bloc, Hungary had particular expertise (???). Years ago, in one discussion I had with John Erickson this came up I seem to remember.

Confusedponderer,

What do you hear over there?

[turcopolier]

CK

"Between three and eight Scuds were fired from the capital Damascus, according to Pentagon sources."

USI would know exactly how many were fired because of the heat flare associated with each one. So who is "Pentagon sources?" pl

[Russ]

Hi Pat,
Yesterday, CNN's Pentagon correspondent reported that the US had observed 3 firings. But I don't remember if they were identified as SCUDs.
I once happened on a Syrian SCUD FTX right beside a minor road. Abit of an exciting moment....
Russ

[Clifford Kiracofe]

Yes.

NPR did not appear to give any Pentagon sources' names in my quote from them above. I have yet to find any names so far in the press of the alleged Pentagon sources and I have been looking hard for them.

If there are such, perhaps it is as in the days of Wolfowitz etal and the cherry picking/disinformation effort they worked out with Cheney and Rumsfeld. So maybe some civilian political appointee types at the Pentagon floated this rather than the military per se. Maybe ISA? or ???

What is odd is that any reporter can contact the press office for an official statement. Also, anyone in the press pool at the Pentagon could simply raise the question about SCUDS in the daily press briefing. A simple confirmation by the press person could be something like: "Yes, we determined that through national technical means." And so on. Pretty simple. There may be an official Pentagon press release on this but I have not seen anything like that quoted either.

Also, I do not understand how editors can let reporters' stories on this go through to press or on air without substantiation.

Today, I have seen the phrase "Western intelligence" sources bandied about as the source.

This reminds me of the coordinated Israeli-British disinformation campaign in the Iraq War. The Herzliyah folks through someone named Rubin foisted on the British some disinformation. Nonetheless, this went into the "dodgy dossier" product Blair waved around while mumbling something about "45 seconds."

Wiki has an entry about the Dodgy Dossier the Brits gave the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Dossier

[Clifford Kiracofe]

Well this evening, a story is moving on the wires saying:

"Admiral James Stavridis, the American who is NATO's military commander, wrote in a blog on Friday: "Over the past few days, a handful of Scud missiles were launched inside Syria, directed by the regime against opposition targets. Several landed fairly close to the Turkish border, which is very worrisome."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/14/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8AJ1FK20121214

So we now have a named official designating these as SCUDS and saying they landed close to the Turkish border. No actual sites where they allegedly hit have yet been identified.

The Israeli Ynet says:
" The six Scud missiles fired by the Syrian Army at rebel bases earlier this week were fired from a base north of Damascus, the London-based Arab newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat reported Friday."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4319910,00.html

Then and this is the most interesting, an AFP report quotes insurgents saying there were six Scuds and a reporter visited one alleged impact:
"AFP - Mangled heaps of metal stretch for hundreds of metres (yards) from a crater in what was an olive grove in northwestern Syria. Rebels say they now face a new enemy: Scuds.

According to the insurgents, at least six surface-to-surface missiles, which they believe to be Scuds, crashed in and around Sheikh Suleiman army base on Monday and Tuesday, an army garrison seized by Al-Nusra Front jihadists."
"Their commander, Abu Jalal, insisted the missiles were Scuds, despite firm denials from Damascus"
"Local residents said it was irrelevant whether they were Scuds of another type of missile. "We live in fear that next time the missiles will land on the town," said Abu Jalal.

A US official told AFP on condition of anonymity on Wednesday that Scud missiles had been used in Syria. However, a security source in Damascus said the army had used a smaller, Syrian-made version of the Scud."
http://www.france24.com/en/20121214-syrian-town-lives-fear-scuds

So, it appears that AFP had the story and a reporter went out to investigate. Good work. The reporter talks with the local al-Nusra or whatever terrorist who tells him these were SCUDS. AFP checks with an unnamed US official who says the Syrians used SCUDS. The story then moves on the wires and is picked up.

So far, I have not seen anything confirming that the US has this through national technical means.

Dodgy...

[DH]

Thanks for this. Jordan is a quiet little mouse that I never hear of. An interesting dilemma.