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15 September 2012

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Tyler

You do not believe reason is divine?

Or a gift from the divine, for that mattter?

Tyler

"Seeking provocation"

Like entering a sacred church and screaming fuck a while dressed like a whore?

Tyler

Common sense restraint only works when everyone is playing by the same rules. Otherwise one side is going to leverage things to the hilt while crying out how they're the victim.

Take the play "The Book of Mormon", for example. If Trey Parker and Matt Stone had any balls, they'd do their take on the life of Mohammed. Instead they pick on the most unassuming religious sect out there, heretics though they may be. And the mouth pieces of the media shower them with plaudits and praise.

Let's see them do that with the Koran, or better yet the Torah, and see what happens, shall we?

Tyler

People are starting to realise that all the Yankees want to do is try to take what works for whiteopias in New England and apply it to the rest of the country. When it fails, as it has and will, its the fault of those redneck yokels (common enough trope in Hollywood).

To them, race does not exist, except when it can be used as a club. The only way we would be free of these "do gooders" is secession.

jonst

Alive...yes. "well", maybe. Look at the type 2 diabetes for a start. Then the median income. Then a host of statistics. You want to call it "well", fine with me.

Babak Makkinejad

I stand by my statement, which is equally valid for Christians, Jews and their off-shoots.

And yes, I maintain that there is a distinct "Muslim"-ness, a Muslim sensibility that obtains not among Europeans who are products of a very different historical process.

A Bosnian and a neo-Salafi share in the Muslim identity which takes the Quran to be the Word of God and the basis of Urbanity, Culture, Law, Philosophy, Literature etc.

They are different in custom, language, geography, food, clothing, etc.

Bosnia is a perfect example; Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians all could have assumed the Yugoslav identity - a state that had existed for 80 years.

But they did not; they separated on basis of religion - Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, and Sunni Islam.

If you go back a few centuries, you will discover epics written in Serb-coration that, depending on the religion of the poet, celeberated this or that war between Muslims and Christians.

One epic celeberates the Muslim heoroes, the other one, the Christian ones.

These people occuplied the same physical and linguistic landscape but lived in different concpetual worlds. One world was informed by Islam, the other by Christianity. And they were never brought together in a Unity.

Another example in historical Punjab: populated by Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus that shared in language, many foods, customs etc. Yet there is no Punjabi Nation, religious differences made it impossible.

Invariably, I have found that people who are from Muslim countries trust people from a Muslim background more; likewise for the Christians.

Up to a few decades ago, in US, Catholics played golf with fellow catholics and Protestants with fellow Protestants.

I think it a grave error to underestimate the depth and significance of religious affiliations of human beings in this world.

May be it will not matter in the next world.

turcopolier

babak

"I think it a grave error to underestimate the depth and significance of religious affiliations of human beings" I could not agree more, but you know that. Now, what was it you were saying about rehabilitation of the confederates... pl

kxd

ah well, faith is a gift I have yet to receive. Therefore, in so much as I believe in reason I can't pretend to know it's origins just like I can't pretend know whether the Divine exists or not. I would like to think that reason could exist without a Governor but that is not proof of anything.
So I try to live my life according to principles which govern me in a rational way and which seems to work while not knowing much about anything.

On other words I'm winging it.

Tyler

Well at least you're honest about it.

I'm Hobbesian in my view of man, but this discussion has been pleasurable.

Babak Makkinejad

That the anti-Federalists were a bulwork against the Empire project.

When they were defeated, the project took off.

John Hay, a letter to Theodore Roosevelt, described the Spanish–American War as a "splendid little war".

He formulated the "Open Door Policy" in China as well.

However, the Confederates are forever smeared with Slavery and few would care to examine the consequences of their defeat.

Would US be were she is today if the Civil War had not occured?

Fred

I was speaking of culture. Type 2 diabetes, blame high fructose corn syrup in everything under the sun. I think that's more Mid-West/Wall Street driven than anything generally 'yankee'. Median income? It's been going up for a long time, thanks to that patrician Yankee FDR and his New Deal, which had allot to do with laying the foundation of (re) industrialization. (TVA, rural electrification, etc.).

Tyler

I often see liberals caw about how the South is a tax negative region by and large, while the NE is by and large tax positive.

Not saying you are doing this, but look at a map for who has more minorities, and then let's talk about the real issue here. Median incomes and obesity are not, by and large, the issues with the white majority, no matter what the media may want you to think with shows like "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo".

Cliffiord Kiracofe

McClatchy news just produced an excellent analysis of the weay the film clip got into the hands of the salafist Egyptian TV program:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/15/168613/anti-us-outrage-over-video-began.html

In short, Morris Sakek, an emigre Egyptian Copt and anti-Muslim activist from the DC area, pushed a local Arab language newspaper to run a story about the film. This was picked up by Islamist websites and rapidly made its way to the salafist news program six days after the original story.

According to internet sources, Sadek's Chantilly, VA based organization has 2 employees and a recent budget of $97,000.

Sadek worked with Media for Christ located in California and operated by emigre Egyptian Copts to produce the film.

Press reports say Sadek's Egyptian citizenship was cancelled in the past year and that the Egyptian Attorney General's office has barred him and a number of other anti-Muslim activists from entering the country.

Are any of those connected with the film acting in behalf of a foreign power or group? Was there any foreign money involved in the production of this film?

Someone smells like a classic agent provocateur...this is not a matter of free speech.

Fred


This didn’t take long:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/09/anti-muslim-film-nakoula-basseley-innocence-muslims.html

I'm sure arresting him won't be enough for those in Egypt.

As to our response, cut off all US aid. Demand an apology from the Egyptian government for defaming our embassy, the heads of those who burned our flag and yes, a new flag. I'm sure we won’t get any of this, we'll get another extortionary demand from Mursi and his mob though.

optimax

MC said the spirit lived in the breast. Aristotle warned of the tyranny of the mind and said man is a rational animal. I think reason is an evolutionary development of the human animal.

Tyler

Reading Aristotle's "Art of Rhetoric" now.

If Reason is an evolutionary development, then where did it come from? Are you saying it appeared spontaneously?

optimax

I didn't mean MC Hammer.Marcus Aureulius said the spirit resides in the breast--not in the brain.

confusedponderer

CK,
happy to see you back.

Re who gave the tip:

"Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-born Coptic Christian, translated the movie into Arabic and sent it to Egyptian journalists."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/this-is-the-man-who-reportedly-translated-sent-the-anti-muhammad-film-to-egyptian-journalists/

kxd

I find myself constantly struggling between being hopeful for humanity or being a downright cynic.

Indeed it has been an enlightening dialogue. Col Lang's blog provides much food for thought on a daily basis. I appreciate him as well as all other contributors for that.

optimax

Just the opposite, built brick by brick.

I'm not a religious scholar--far from it--but I know of no original religious text, not including commentaries or interpretations, that maintains reason as a means of spiritual advancement. In fact, in Genesis Adam and Eve's direct connection with God is broken by their search for knowledge (reason).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-reason but see it as a man-made construction to understand the world inorder to control it for our survival as a species. It wasn't a conscious evolutioinary development until--and this is controversial--about 2500 yearws ago with the development of the bicameral mind. That is when Aristotle, Lao Tzu and others began to see man as willful and not a sock puppet of the gods.

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