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16 September 2012

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Babak Makkinejad

Col. Lang:

You stated:

"Gregory told Bibi that he (Bibi) was the "leader of the Jewish people." Is that really true? "

In my opinion yes, it is true.

Israel is supposed to be the State of Jweish people (Israel) - that is what the name implies.

Many Jews - from different parts of the world - claim that she is their country.

It then follows that Bibi is their leader; not just Jewish Israelis but Jews everywhere.

This is the problematic of the formulation of the State of Israel.

Its consequences, I believe, are evident for all Jews living outside of Israel.

On Fanaticism:

More than one hundred years of archelogical research has not revealed any evidence for the existence of the Kingdoms of David and Solomon in Palestine.

Yet that is the mythical basis of the claim of Israelis to Palestine.

r whitman

Bibi is surely past his "sell by" date. It would not surprise me that if Obama wins the election he conditions further good relations and cooperation with Israel upon Netanyu stepping down as their leader.

Joe

I wished I hadn't clicked on that link. Watching interviews with Natanyahu depresses me. What a way to ruin a Sunday.

Here is a better interview to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBJ6VL3XQM0

Now that's an American patriot :)

If our media was pro-American, they'd be interviewing guys like this 24/7, instead of parading around a delusional foreign leader and sucking up to him.

Al Spafford

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLjZoA3GaVE&feature=related
Did you see this interview on Russian TV back last year? Scheuer REALLY lays it all out in this one.

seydlitz89

"Towards the end Gregory told Bibi that he (Bibi) was the "leader of the Jewish people." Is that really true? "

I'm no expert on Judaism, but see this rather as a political question. What if one is a Jewish anti-Zionist, and there are many? Is a Jew thus required to support the state of Israel no matter what, even if one disagrees with the establishment, let alone policies, of said state? Is support of Israel thus a litmus test for being Jewish? Who has the authority to make that decision, the supposed leader, which is a circular argument? Who was the "leader of the Jewish people" prior to 1948? I think Mr. Gregory is mixing up religion with politics . . .

mbrenner

Babak

There is no basis whatsoever for what you say. In the temporal sense, he is not the leader of anyone who is not an Israeli citizen. As a religious leader, he has no standing at all. As a tribal leader, only for those Israelis and their soul brothers elsewhere who see themselves in a mortal tribal conflict with Arabs/Muslims. This last sentiment is what many have tried to inculcate. They have won over only a tiny fraction of American Jews and other diaspara Jews. By the way, I have never heard an American Jew use the term diaspora in reference to himself.

As to the election, Romney has no chance of substantially increasing his share of the Jewish vote. (Money is something else). That is due not only to their resistance to the Bibi view of the world. Romney himself puts them off. Most Jews are by instinct liberals. The Tea Party Republican Party is very hard to swallow. Second, they are very sensitive to the personal character and temperament of rulers - two millenia of living by your wits does that. Romney come across as weird, erratic, and somebody who doesn't mind hurting people. He is an alien type - Morminism aside. As for Ryan, attitudes are unaffected by Irish Catholicism. But he does fit the mold of the punk Irishman who never has been their darling.

different clue

Gregory saying it is true does not make it true in and of itself.

Election 2012 will provide a very crude measure of just how many American Jewish voters behave as if it is true for them on election day. Those who take leadership from Netanyahu will vote for Romney because that is who Netanyahu wants for President. ( Though some will also vote for Romney for social class advantage reasons and I don't know how to sort them out from the proxy-Netanyahu voters).
Will Jewish liberal voters who would consider Romney too conservative and upper-class-focused a President otherwise vote for Romney because Netanyahu wants it? We will find out in the months after the election as district by district and even precinct by precinct analyses of vote totals are conducted. Somehow I have my doubts.
(Some-to-many Jewish voters may vote against Obama for not being domestically liberal enough . . . after all the promised "hope and change" . . . but they will show their displeasure by voting for Rocky Anderson or the Green Party or one of the little socialist parties or by leaving the "president" line blank. This may advantage Rommey by default, but that will not be the intent of such votes. It will be interesting to see how many Jewish liberals vote for "Aboor" . .
Anyone but Obama or Romney").

Jackie

Oh boy, this should be fun!!!

Fred

Just because Natanyahu says it does not make it true. You're making a gross generalization. None of the Jewish Americans I know feel they are Israeli's at any level. As to the Kingdom of David, Isn't that made clear in the Quran?

Patrick D

"Gregory told Bibi that he (Bibi) was the "leader of the Jewish people." Is that really true? "

I believe many if not all Israeli prime ministers have made claims to this effect.

Tyler

Jews are generally a destabilizing force in any society they enter, pushing concepts such as diversity and multiculturalism in order to make themselves feel "safer", since its harder for a divided populace to gang up on them.

Of course, the fruits of this labor can backfire, as you see in Europe with the massive Muslim influx now going after the Jews.

Nancy

Ultra conservative, hyper religious groups are also a destabilizing force in any society, as evidenced by what is happening in the ME.
I believe that a society that lacks diversity is a weaker society. Example the ME. I am sure you will disagree with me as I am a proponent of multiculturalism and I also feel that is a healthy thing. A society where everyone thinks the same and looks the same, eats the same food, listens to the same music and believe in the same relgion would be very boring indeed.

Cal

I think it's clear to anyone who has followed and studied the Israel issue, particularly the US-Isr relationship what the rallying cry of Israel and zionism is with the Jews.

Zionism has morphed the original justification for Israel as a 'safe haven' and morphed Judaism, to a full blown concept of 'Jewish Nationalism' in which all Jews are members of the Jewish Nation,Israel,and must act in it's, their 'true' nation's interest.
IOW, for Jews who embrace this 'Nationalism' of
Jewish peoplehood, their Jewish nationalism identification demands it supersede the interest of any other various nations around the world they might they live in.
This so smacks of the old canards of Jews as a nation within a nation and alien to the countries they live in that it's bizarre beyond belief Jews would put themselves in this position by supporting or adopting zionism.

Charlie Wilson

If Bibi is a leader of all Jews then I am the leader of all WASPS.

Babak Makkinejad

I beg to differ.

The word "Israel" means the Jewish People; like in "Shema Israel..." - "Hear O! Israel".

That is why the State of Israel is so named, rather than than a less religiously significant name such as Hebrew Republic of Palestine, Democratic & People's Republic of Zion etc.

This is akin to Italy calling herself "Corpus Christi" - the body of Christ - i.e. the Church.

I believe that I have established that connection accurately.

I also think you are underestimating the degree and depth of the emotional relationship that Jews everywhere have with the State of Israel. You know, things like "Next Year in Jerusalem..." and all the emotion vested in it over the centuries and millenia.

Babak Makkinejad

Nancy:

The Middle East was a more diverse place until Western ideas started peneterationg among their elites.

Pontic Greeks were expelled from their ancestral lands by Turkey in an effort to emulate European states and create a new mono-ethnic state.

Ramaallah used to be a Cathliic city; now it has become a Muslim city as Catholic Palestinians have left due to Israeli depredations.

George Bush had hired the Jewish Agency to depopulate Iran from Christians and Jews.

Babak Makkinejad

That was my thinking as well; clearly a very emotional issue across the world; I heard similar things from USSR and from Iran.

optimax

Oh hail, Great Leader. What the hell happened?

Rd.

"Why not "containment?"

How about a transactional understanding?

General Dempsey in Turkey, while Dr. Jalili is in Turkey one day ahead of his mtg with EU.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/eus-ashton-to-meet-iran-nuclear-negotiator-in-istanbul.aspx?pageID=238&nID=30315&NewsCatID=338

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/top-us-general-in-ankara-to-discuss-syria-crisis.aspx?pageID=238&nID=30329&NewsCatID=359

 Larry Kart

I'm Jewish, and Bibi is not MY leader. Nor was any previous prime minister of the State of Israel.

Yes, the history and the position of the State of Israel are somewhat equivocal to say the least, no matter through what lens one is looking, but whatever else one feels that Israel is/might be/wants to be, it is also a nation state among other nation states. And I am a citizen of another nation state -- this one.

Tyler

No, what is going on right now in the ME is secular liberalism/do gooderism from the multicultural West trying to impose its values on the Middle East. Unlike the West who rolls over and debases itself in the name of 'equality', the Middle East is more likely to pick up an AK47 and go rape an ambassador.

How is a homogeneous group reflecting the values of the people it represents a "destablizing force"? The Catholic Church held the flame of civilization in Europe for centuries after the fall of Rome.

Boring? I didn't realise that your entertainment was the number one reason a culture comes together. I guess the high crime, increased social withdrawal, civil strife, poor labor conditions and other 'gifts' of multiculturalism are alright to you as long as you get to eat a fucking burrito.

Talk to me when that IDF husband of yours has to compete against an illegal alien who will work at $4/hour.

Fred

These are the appropriate words:

“ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL”

Here’s some more that Bibi and company do not live up to.
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm

Bill H

Interesting. We contained the Soviet Union with thousands of nuclear weapons but we cannot, apparently, contain Iran with one or two nuclear weapons. Is that a reflection on Iran, on our abilities, or merely on what Israel thinks of our abilities?

Babak Makkinejad

It is interesting that the word "inhabitant" occurs here as well.

That distinction was made by Sheikh Fazl O Allah Nouri early last century in connection with the Iranian Constitutional Revolution of 1907.

His thinking was the only Muslims could be citizens of Iran while other religious minorities were inhabitants.

Babak Makkinejad

I am suggesting that there are no archeological evidence for the existence of Kingdoms of David or Solomon in Palestine.

Perhaps the location is misunderstood; they could be in Arabia, or Jordan, or in Sinai, or in Lebanon, or in Syria.

Both David and Solomon have been mentioned in the Quran.

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