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29 August 2012

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charlie

Again, I've asked before, how many American citizens have the Israelis killed since 1948?

I have no doubt that her death was an accident, but that isn't a defense in a civil suit. I do think a US suit would work.

Eric Dönges

I do not think U.S. courts have jurisdiction in this case. However, the ICC, which Israel is a party to, clearly does - if the Israeli claim of being at war is accurate, killing a civilian could be a war crime, and the ICC can become involved if the national courts that have jurisdiction (in this case the Israeli courts) are unwilling or unable to prosecute. Perhaps the Corries should try The Hague instead.

They could also ask their fellow Americans why they continue to give billions to a country that thinks killing American civilians in a war the U.S. is not a party to is justified. Also, they could ask why the State Department, which has no qualms whatsoever to engage in arm twisting abroad to further U.S. commercial interests, is unwilling to twist arms in this case.

The Moar You Know

While I think Rachel was a complete idiot - you don't go marching into live-fire combat zones and try the same sit-in tactics you learned while protesting the opening of a Whole Foods - Israel's response to their deliberate bulldozing murder of an American protester, which boils down to "get bent, America", is appalling. An weasel-worded apology and a decent-sized bag of dollars would have made all this bad press go away.

"Israel by its own estimation has been at war since 1948. That would seem to indicate that they feel justified in killing anyone, anywhere, any time if they think it is a good idea."

It does seem that way, and their past and present behavior certainly would indicate this to be the case. At least America bothers to get someone to sign off on the same practices first. And we always apologize.

"The State Department says that the family has the right to appeal under Israeli law. I suggest the Corries come home and try their luck in US courts."

I think this is a great but ultimately futile idea. They may get some money out of it, but there will be no justice here. We've watched the US Government and our justice system cover time and time again for the Israelis, no matter how hideous the acts.

"There must be justice somewhere."

I'm surprised at this statement from you. Of all people, you surely understand that there's no such thing as "justice" anywhere in this world. The Corries will never get their daughter back and I'm sure that's fundamentally the only thing they want. Maybe in the next world. As an atheist who fervently hopes I'm wrong regarding my inability to perceive a God, I can hope so for their sake.

Fred

Getting run over by a bull dozer - twice - during a non violent protest is hardly an accident.

Fred

Interesting ideas. Also, if this is a war, Israel would be a war zone and that State Department should have some travel warnings and companies travel restrictions in place.

confusedponderer

"That would seem to indicate that they feel justified in killing anyone, anywhere, any time if they think it is a good idea."

Seriously, do they not act like it habitually? It certainly feels like that if one looks at their fondness for assassinations.

And there is also little difference in the treatment of the cases of Carrie or of the Flotilla people. In both cases the IDF was blameless, and protesters 'had it coming' because 'they brought it on themselves' by doing something Israel didn't want them to do.

Alas, what else was there for Israel left to do but to use overwhelming force disproportionally in face of such vicious 'aggression'?

Heck, even that IDF officer who fired a magazine or so into a Palestinian child at point blank range was completely innocent. Obviously that child must have done something to provoke that justified retaliation, like being there, certainly she must have posed a threat.

"The judges who acquitted Captain R accepted his version of event, in which he stated that the shots that he fired were not aimed directly at the girl's body. Captain R told the court he opened fire in order to create a deterrence, and that he believed that the young girl posed a serious threat."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-officer-cleared-in-death-of-gaza-girl-to-receive-compensation-from-state-1.183463

Gee, these Palestinian girls must be truly menacing.

confusedponderer

ED,
there has at least been one case in which the US did claim jurisdiction over crimes committed against a US citizen:

"The passive personality principle is an interesting offshoot of the nationality principle. It looks to the nationality of the victim to determine jurisdiction, holding that a state may assert jurisdiction over persons and events outside a state's territory on the basis that its citizen has been harmed. In the case of United States v. Roberts, 1 F.Supp. 2d 601 (E.D. La. 1998), which had an unusual set of facts, the victim of a crime of sexual abuse of a minor (who was a U.S. citizen) had a case tried against her aggressor who was a citizen of the Caribbean island of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. The crime took place on international waters on board a ship registered in Liberia and owned by a company incorporated in the Republic of Panama. None of the regular methods of jurisdiction, forum non conveniens, or comity would have worked. Id. The defendant was indicted by a federal grand jury in the Eastern District of Louisiana and the defendant's motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction was denied by the federal district court, which found jurisdiction under the passive personality principle."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction_over_international_defendants_in_the_United_States

I doubt that the US will choose to pursue this route in the case of Corrie. The pro-Israeli pressure is just too great.

agin' cajun

"I have no doubt that her death was an accident,.." Really?

I would love to see a poll from the survivors of the USS Liberty and see if they would agree with your "no doubt" assessment.

Whether you agree or disagree with the young woman's politics and/or her methods.......IMO........she was murdered to send a message. The same message that has been sent by a long list of "accidents" and overt attacks against NGOs and independent groups that have attempted to provide humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people.

Just my two cents......ie...........my opinion.

Castellio

Exactly so, a message sent. To read of others to whom the message was also sent, I suggest:

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2012/08/28/rachel-corrie-among-first-in-long-line-of-foreign-rights-activists-murdered-maimed-by-idf/

Eric Dönges

I've done some googling, and it seems the U.S. has also used the passive personality principle in cases of terrorism, or to prosecute Manuel Noriega. To be honest, I am rather surprised, as this is the kind of subversion of sovereignty the U.S. is usually vigorously opposed against (at least where it concerns U.S. sovereignty). But as you say, this is probably all moot in this case.

optimax

I knew the conductor whose train rain over a protester at the Contra Costa Arms Depot a few decades ago. I think it was a combination of frustration and anger at the protesters for continually, over a period of months, keeping him from performing his job (probably had a date that night)and he thought he could scare the protesters away from the track and finish his shift. The conductor miscalculated when one man did not move fast enough, got rolled under the engine and somehow survived minus some body parts.

I can't say what the Cat operator was thinking but do know that for the conductor it was personal and not political.

turcopolier

optimax

If this IDF soldier operator had been acting on his own he would have been punished. pl

Rd.

"Judge Gershon says the act was justified because this was a "war time situation." "

By precedence, is this judge acknowledging the german nazi crimes of concentration camps in WWII, were justified? because it was war time situation?

confusedponderer

i.e. the dozer operator did what he was ordered to do?

I have long thought that.

If he had run her over on his own whim that would have been undisciplined. For an army, even a tribal outfit like the IDF, to tolerate something like that would be folly. They might tolerate it in order to avoid embarrassment, or out of tribal loyalty, but that would still be stupid.

If, on the other hand, he ran her over under orders, now that would certainly give the IDF a great and even rational incentive to protect him.

optimax

I didn't realize the operator was IDF.

confusedponderer

No he wasn't IDF. He was a reservist, but in a country like Israel everybody is. Focusing on the driver is misleading, however.

The point is that the driver was in radio contact with the IDF which was directing his work at the scene iirc from a tank. Even if the driver of the dozer didn't see Corrie, the soldiers in the tank directing him did. They did not tell him that she was there, even though they had a clear view of the scene. Corrie's orange jacket was well visible. They had him proceed.

To put it in legal terms: If this is true, and it appears likely to me, the IDF would be the indirect perpetrator, using the driver as their unwitting tool.

Israel then deliberately tried the wrong guy, the driver, to be able to find him not guilty. Case closed.

charlie

as the police say, there are no accidents.

However, in legal terms, this was an accident and the question is one of liability.

Her parents have a strong wrongful death suit against Isreal in US courts.

As others have suggested, a good case for the ICC.

The US itself has few options; there are some legal theories which might attach, however, you can understand why they are relectant to use them.

fanto

A drama/play about Rachel Corrie was to be shown in NYC but was cancelled, if I remember correctly; the political pressure prevented that to be staged. There is some truth to collective punishment, isn't it? Germans learned that lesson.

Cal

"I do not think U.S. courts have jurisdiction in this case"

The US courts regularly try cases brought against other nations for damages to US citizens.
E.v.e.r.y.o.n.e...and their brother has been tried in *US courts* for damages on behalf of Jewish victims...from corporations that did business with Germany in the 30's and 40's to Swiss banks to suspected Palestines throwing the Jewish man off a oceanliner. There have been hundreds upon hundreds of them.

Examples


Holocaust survivors' children sue Swiss banks for lost assets – Haaretz
www.haaretz.com/jewish.../jewish.../holocaust-survivors-children-sue...Cached

May 3, 2012 – Two Israelis file $315 million suit in U.S. court, claiming the banks

Hungary sued in U.S. court over role in Holocaust - Israel News ...
www.haaretz.com/jewish.../hungary-sued-in-u-s-court-over-role-in-h...Cached - Similar

"The Jewish victims of the Hungarian Holocaust seek only what is due them ... The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, seeks

Families Of Kidnapped Persian Jews Sue Khatami In US Court -- re ...
www.prnewswire.com/.../families-of-kidnapped-persian-jews-sue-kha...Cached

German railway fears flood of lawsuits over Holocaust trains ...
www.independent.co.uk/.../german-railway-fears-flood-of-lawsuits-o...Cached

Apr 3, 2012 – ... enabling Holocaust victims and their relatives to sue for damages in US courts.

Two Israelis to sue two Swiss banks, govt. for $267.18 million
www.allvoices.com/.../12035921-two-israelis-to-sue-swiss-banks-gov...Cached

Apr 27, 2012 – A large number of Jews living in European countries during the Second ... What is the logic behind filing the case in a US court against the Swiss banks? The victims know that the US allows to sue a foreign state

US court orders Syria to pay $330 million to bereaved family of 2006 ...
www.timesofisrael.com › Israel & the RegionCached

May 15, 2012 – the Jewish people worldwide ... Justice was done for the terror victims,” said activist attorney Nitsana ... The Israeli civil rights organization sues terror groups and their ... In the case, filed three years ago in the United States District Court


Cal

Accident or not? It's minutely possible but not likely.
I've been in few bulldozers during my highway contracting days moons ago and I looked at the picture of the dozer that ran her over. Witnesses, more than one, said Rachel climbed to the top of the dirt pile in front of the dozer and was eye to eye with the operator. If the blade was down which it was, they would have been eye to eye cause the cab on D9 is a high one naturally because the operator has to see where he's going.
Witnesses said Rachel then turned to go back down the dirt pile and appeared to trip or fall forward. The fall most likely was because the dozer operator kept going even after he saw her at the top of dirt pile---by continuing on he pushed the mass of dirt against Rachel's back lower legs as she was descending the dirt pile and the weight of the dirt threw her forward off her feet. The dozer continued with Rachel being now under the dirt and crushed by the dozer weight.
The ultimate question is...when the operator didn't see her exit his path on either side of the dozer ---**which he could have seen if she had exited** particularly in a florescent jacket--why didn't he stop?
He could have seen her leave if she had moved out of his path to either side, he did have that field of vision from the cab.
It doesn't matter if he displayed negligence or deliberately ran her over to ingrained IDF contempt for or policy on civilians who interfere with them...Israel is still responsible for his actions.

Tyler

They've been stigmatized by every culture they've dealt with, but everyone else is the problem.

Babak Makkinejad

Jews from all over the world go to Israel and join IDF for fun and adventure.

After they had finished playing soldier, they go back to their comfortable lives in North America and Europe.

The distinction between Reservists and IDF is meaningless; they are a poorly disciplined army and that they won against Arab armies only attests to tha fact that Arab armies were even in a worse shape than IDF.

Fred

I believe the Jordanians fought rather well against the IDF but had a much smaller force and little air support.

Babak Makkinejad

Yes, you are right.

And I heard that Syrian-Iraqi tank formation fought well for Golan in 1973.

But not since, excepting the Lebanese Shia.

Babak Makkinejad

She was murdered by a state which can do no wrong (in America).

If she had been murdered by any other (the usual suspects: Hizbullah, Iran, Palestinians, etc.) there would have been multi-million dollar law suits.

This case must be viewed in exactly the same way as the case of USS Liberty and USS Panay (1937).

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