Treason

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court...."  Articel III, Section 3 of the US Constitution.

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I have received repeated requests to have an ongoing open thread on traitors to the United States.  The crime of treason is defined as above in the constitution.  It is clear from this that one must be a US citizen to be covered by this paragraph in the constitution. 

Don't bother to try to cite the Confederates as "traitors.'  We have dealt with that endlessly elsewhere.  Briefly, the US Government never tried any of them for treason and treated the seceded states as a belligerent power throughout the war.  After the war, the seceded states were re-admitted to the Union one by one, Therefore...   IMO the Confederates were not US citizens.  pl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#Federal

Comments

[Babak Makkinejad]

Why did not the United States try and execute the poet Ezra Pond?

[turcopolier]

Babak

It chose not to do so. pl

[The Twisted Genius]

The Constitution sets a very high bar for the crime of treason. It may be that the framers of the Constitution saw that the loss of a convicted traitor's sacred honor as a far worse punishment than imprisonment or execution. That is as it should be.

[The Twisted Genius]

Babak,

Ezra Pound was a U.S. citizen by birth. He chose not to live here most of his adult life. I don't know if he ever declared allegiance to the U.S or renounced allegiance to the the U.S. Some one like Ames or Pollard declared an oath allegiance to the U.S. prior to their treachery. That makes all the difference in the world.

[turcopolier]

TTG

I don't think the issue of his non-residnece or not being oath bound makes any difference under the law. He was still a citizen. IMO the USG did not want to try a poet of his magnitude and significance. the government has an absolute right to prosecute or not. pl

[The Twisted Genius]

I gather that Pound would have had to renounce his U.S. citizenship, turn in his passport and actively seek citizenship in another country to legally avoid a charge of treason. Judging by his actions, I still doubt whether Pound considered himself a U.S. citizen or guilty of treason. To me treason is like a mortal sin. You have to know it's a sin. I do realize I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in a legal court with this kind of argument.

Luckily, Pound's apparent mental breakdown after his capture in Italy gave U.S. authorities ample excuse to about prosecuting him for treason.

[Babak Makkinejad]

Pound began a broadcast for Radio Rome on April 23, 1943 declaring,"I think quite simply and definitely that American troops in North Africa, all of 'em ought to go back to America, if they can get there."

Later he declared,"I think it might be a good thing to hang Roosevelt and a few hundred yids."

I should think that the US dead at Monet Cassino deserved better.

[turcopolier]

Babak

I agree.pl

[turcopolier]

TTG

As a fellow Catholic I agree with your distinction between the moral and the legal aspects of treason. pl

[The Twisted Genius]

Babak and PL,

Pound was an anti-semetic, anti-american, fascist enemy of the U.S. supporting twit who may very well have feigned madness to avoid execution for treason. The U.S. dead at Monte Cassino deserved better than this. I still doubt that he considered himself a U.S. citizen.

I don't think citizenship should be left up to the chance of birth. We should be required to register as full citizens as a positive act. Something akin to registration for selective service. Perhaps registering to vote is the appropriate act. Failing to do so would would mean you are a U.S. resident, but not a U.S. citizen. Rights, privileges and obligations would be bestowed accordingly.

[mike]

Didn't he spend a dozen years locked up and staright jacketed in a psychiatric prison? Sounds like he got his due.

Tokyo Rose was never prosecuted for treason either. And an American POW, Captain Ince, who had been a scriptwriter for that program was never prosecuted either to my knowledge.

I wonder more about General Wilkinson who was the infamous agent 13 for Spain. Who was it that said Wilkinson: "never won a battle and never lost a court martial"???

[optimax]

mike

Pound spent 3 weeks in a 6 by 6 cage when he was first arrested and went nuts (or feigned it) after 2 1/2. Then spent 12 years at a psychiatric hospital in the US. It sounds comfortable: had an alcove he used for writing the Cantos and received literary guest there. When released he returned to Italy and died there.

[Larry Kart]

The chief reason Pound was not tried for treason was that the psychiatrists at St. Elizabeth's adjudged him to be insane. Yes, as the Colonel said, almost certainly "the USG [also] did not want to try a poet of his magnitude and significance," but I came to know quite well the then-young psychiatrist Jerome Kavka who had the primary role in dealing with/trying to treat Pound, and neither he nor most of his colleagues at St. Eizabeth's had any doubt that Pound was insane at the time. Dr. Kavka died at age 90 on May 27. His account of his dealing with Pound will soon be published in the literary journal Paideuma.

[lally]

The blunt Rafi Eitan points the way to another actor who was clearly a high-level traitor seeded within the Federal infrastructure. Presumably he was native-born and trusted enough to be in the loop on the timing of upcoming operations:

"In a parallel development, Army Radio reported Tuesday morning that former pensioners affairs minister Rafi Eitan dropped a bombshell during an interview Monday. In the interview, Eitan announced that he had 24-hours notice before Pollard was arrested and so he promptly called then-prime minister Peres to update him. When asked why officials didn’t use the 24-hour window to prevent the arrest, Eitan declined to respond.

The Army Radio interviewer attempted to persuade Eitan to repeat the same comment on record Tuesday, but Eitan responded that “a slip of the tongue is not something one repeats a second time.”
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=276143

Who was that masked man?

[johnf]

The British hanged William Joyce, aka Lord Haw Haw the wartime radio propagandist, for treason in 1946, even though he was Irish rather than British. He had, however, obtained a British passport through deception, so they overlooked his deception and hanged him.

Had Ezra Pound instead been called Ezra Pond I suspect his literary reputation would today be less.

[Hank Foresman]

Pat I would commend to you and the correspondents of SST a very insightful article on the prosecution of Aaron Burr for Treason. To my knowledge it is the only prosecution of its kind in the United States. Here is the link to the article http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/burr/burraccount.html.

There are several important lessons from this case.

a. Chief Justice Marshall, in his capacity of riding the circuit tried the case and set a very high bar for proof of treason.
b. Mr. Jefferson, the paragon of liberty, was not above using the law to settle political grudges.
c. That the charge of treason can be easily influenced by politics.

[turcopolier]

lally

Eitan and team daily provided Pollard a list of documents they wanted . The list was by title and serial number. These documents were available in standing naval intelligence files bu were mostly the products of other parts of the intelligence community. Pollard had access to these documents but would not have known of their existence without the tasking. Most of thse documents concerned the USSR. The inescapable conclusion that we reached was that other persons in the government were providing the data from which Eitan made his tasking lists. pl

[lally]

pl.

Would the provider(s) of the data of desired documents also be in position to know about the timing of Pollard's arrest? On the surface, it would seem that those operational details would be closely held by those within the DOJ & FBI who would be directly involved.

[turcopolier]

lally

Naval intelligence may have known when he was likely to be arrested, but not all the other producers of the documents. After the fact there were damage assesment boards conducted by the navy and DIA for the JCS. I was a member of the DIA/JCS board. pl

[Alba Etie]

Col Lang
Do you think the Pollard case raises to the high standards set for Treason ? And is such Treason a Capital Offense ? Where there Americans killed because of Pollards Treason ?

[turcopolier]

AE

No. I thnk espionage was the correct charge. pl

[Alba Etie]

Col Lang
Thank you - so you think Mr Pollard will ever be paroled ? And is espionage ever a Capital offense ?

[Alba Etie]

The wiki says certain types of espionage are capital offenses. And in reviewing the entrys for the Rosenbergs -it looks like they were charged with both espionage & treason. I would pray that Mr Pollard is never paroled .

[turcopolier]

AE

I would be willing to trade Pollard to the Izzies for admission of their full guilt in this and the Liberty affair. No parole, just a trade, we get the truth in exchange for their "man." This would be something like forcing Karla across the bridge, but without the dignity. pl

[lally]

pl.

An impression is forming that the provider of the Russia-centric data was the one deciding what the Israelis needed. Wouldn't a well-entrenched & specialized civilian have more freedom of movement than that afforded to security professionals consigned to their lanes?

That Jonathan Pollard surely is a tiresomely vexatious fellow; the Ransom of Red Chief somehow comes to mind.

"Said Esther [Pollard]: “In 1998, Larry and I along with (Israeli prisoner rights advocate) Herut Lapid met with Rafi Eitan. Until 1998, Eitan had refused our requests to meet. As we began our conversation, Eitan told us the only thing he is sorry about is that he did not ‘finish the job’ before leaving the States.

“We asked him what he meant by this. Eitan replied, ‘If I had been at the embassy when Pollard came to seek asylum, I would have put a bullet through his head. There would have been no Pollard affair.’

“Stunned, we just stared at Eitan as he continued: ‘The next day, I would have seen to it that the news reports stated that an American intruder had attacked a guard at the Israeli Embassy – no mention of any spy affair – and that in the scuffle a gun went off and the American was killed. There would have been no Pollard case. That is the only thing I am sorry about.’”
http://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34926/

Rafi should fess up. They OWE US the identity of their American collaborators at the very least.